Which Performance Chip?
03-16-2007, 12:48 AM
#16
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Lorenfb
"So the trick is to find an eprom that advances ignition timing during WOT as close as possible to the point of mean best torque without causing borderline detonation."
And that's what Porsche did initially, unless one wants to run race fuel!
"How far away are you from AMD? They have the equipment to perform live dyno-remapping"
On a stock engine, no real benefit results from custom tuning, i.e. since it's the typical "pushed
timing" that provides the "feel" that one gets as the AFRs are bascially right-on. Furthermore,
it's a real ripoff, i.e. beyond the typical waste of a performance chip.
Save your money and buy a carbon fiber shift ****, i.e. cars always "feel"
better after an installation.
And that's what Porsche did initially, unless one wants to run race fuel!
"How far away are you from AMD? They have the equipment to perform live dyno-remapping"
On a stock engine, no real benefit results from custom tuning, i.e. since it's the typical "pushed
timing" that provides the "feel" that one gets as the AFRs are bascially right-on. Furthermore,
it's a real ripoff, i.e. beyond the typical waste of a performance chip.
Save your money and buy a carbon fiber shift ****, i.e. cars always "feel"
better after an installation.
Yeah!!!! Great advice from someone has zero dyno time. Rolling road chip will yield about 20 rwhp. I know. Can you feel it on the street?...... maybe maybe not , but you will see it on the track. I quess I should be bowing down to the.... Ahemmm Lorenfg god? Yeah ok
03-16-2007, 04:19 AM
#17
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We have this debate every time, which doesn't help people make up their mind!
Maybe Porsche did get the mapping perfect, but that is for 95RON fuel. Please can one of the doubters please explain to me why, if you can be certain to be running 98RON (UK), you cannot improve the mapping?
Maybe Porsche did get the mapping perfect, but that is for 95RON fuel. Please can one of the doubters please explain to me why, if you can be certain to be running 98RON (UK), you cannot improve the mapping?
03-16-2007, 06:07 AM
#18
Racer
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Hi Craig - I had a look at the racingonline web site - looks interesting. I might have a drive over there today to see the facilities first hand and get some prices for individual and group dyno testing. I'm certainly interested in a dyno test probably go for a before and after if I get the ProMax chip fitted. Anybody else within reach of Halifax West Yorkshire interested?
03-16-2007, 10:33 AM
#20
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The 964 RS has a standard motor but has a very mild DME recal. More FW bhp is the result.
The 964 is not at any limit running 95 RON fuel. UK 964s running 98RON can acheive more bhp.
This is getting boring to have this reality argued over . Can I suggest that those not familiar with DME calibration when applied to different fuel RON levels go to a local library and search for a suitable book.
All the best
Geoff
The 964 is not at any limit running 95 RON fuel. UK 964s running 98RON can acheive more bhp.
This is getting boring to have this reality argued over . Can I suggest that those not familiar with DME calibration when applied to different fuel RON levels go to a local library and search for a suitable book.
All the best
Geoff
03-16-2007, 01:16 PM
#21
"Rolling road chip will yield about 20 rwhp."
More "smoke & mirrors"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So where's the results without the HYBERBOLE???????????
Test Procedure:
1. Stock Porsche dyno run.
2. Tweaked Porsche dyno run WITHOUT any engine mods, e.g. intake or exhaust
and using standard fuel, i.e. no 100 octane race fuel.
And no Mickey Mouse G-Tech speed tests either, e.g. "Can you feel it on the street."
We're waiting!
It never ends does it, i.e. "Let's suck the naive into custom tuning or a performance chip."?
More "smoke & mirrors"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So where's the results without the HYBERBOLE???????????
Test Procedure:
1. Stock Porsche dyno run.
2. Tweaked Porsche dyno run WITHOUT any engine mods, e.g. intake or exhaust
and using standard fuel, i.e. no 100 octane race fuel.
And no Mickey Mouse G-Tech speed tests either, e.g. "Can you feel it on the street."
We're waiting!
It never ends does it, i.e. "Let's suck the naive into custom tuning or a performance chip."?
03-16-2007, 01:32 PM
#22
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Loren,
You have never measured a 964 and are limiting all you experience to California available crap gas.
I specifically referenced UK 98 RON fuel. I have so much data using a Maha 4wd Dyno it is almost painful .All this goes back to 1989 when the 964 was the current 911 .
You have some objective here which I am not interested to follow. Its a shame
that what could be an interesting conversation always turns into this kind of nonsense.
You win, I give up.
Geoff
You have never measured a 964 and are limiting all you experience to California available crap gas.
I specifically referenced UK 98 RON fuel. I have so much data using a Maha 4wd Dyno it is almost painful .All this goes back to 1989 when the 964 was the current 911 .
You have some objective here which I am not interested to follow. Its a shame
that what could be an interesting conversation always turns into this kind of nonsense.
You win, I give up.
Geoff
03-16-2007, 02:40 PM
#25
"interesting conversation always turns into this kind of nonsense."
Nonsense? Right, it's really nonsense about all the unreallistic claims.
Most on this thread (and many, many before) agree about the big NOTHING of
964 performance chips, and it's no different for custom tuning. It appears that
most have ignored what other Rennlist members have posted.
Bottomline: Review all the old Rennlist threads especially the one about switching to Motec
and tuning for that BIG performance gain, NOT.
"I, too, am curious to see Geoffrey's testing results for the chips."
Jason has provided the overall results of many chips in another Rennlist thread.
His data won't differ from what's found by further analysis of other chips.
Nonsense? Right, it's really nonsense about all the unreallistic claims.
Most on this thread (and many, many before) agree about the big NOTHING of
964 performance chips, and it's no different for custom tuning. It appears that
most have ignored what other Rennlist members have posted.
Bottomline: Review all the old Rennlist threads especially the one about switching to Motec
and tuning for that BIG performance gain, NOT.
"I, too, am curious to see Geoffrey's testing results for the chips."
Jason has provided the overall results of many chips in another Rennlist thread.
His data won't differ from what's found by further analysis of other chips.
03-16-2007, 07:07 PM
#26
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Loren
Please can you explain why a 964 is different from any other car? If a car is mapped to run on 95 RON and then remapped to run on 98RON, if the maps are optimised, the 98RON allows you to gain more power. This really is engine tuning 101. Please can you explain why it doesn't apply to the 964. I must be missing something.
Back to the subject of which chip. IMO, buying a generic chip is, as has been said, a bit of a lottery. However, those who can carry out a live remap should be able to give you more power, specifically mapped for your car. They should also be able to provide before and after graphs!
Please can you explain why a 964 is different from any other car? If a car is mapped to run on 95 RON and then remapped to run on 98RON, if the maps are optimised, the 98RON allows you to gain more power. This really is engine tuning 101. Please can you explain why it doesn't apply to the 964. I must be missing something.
Back to the subject of which chip. IMO, buying a generic chip is, as has been said, a bit of a lottery. However, those who can carry out a live remap should be able to give you more power, specifically mapped for your car. They should also be able to provide before and after graphs!
03-16-2007, 10:56 PM
#27
"If a car is mapped to run on 95 RON and then remapped to run on 98RON"
1. Where's it stated that the 964 is mapped (optimized for) 95? And if so, remapping for 98,
i.e. tweaking the timing at most a few degrees, won't make that much RWHP difference
if any.
2. As posted before, most/all 964 owners don't notice any real performance change.
This has been demostrated with the "in-the-noise-level" difference of posted before/after dyno graphs.
3. Using 98 octane has no benefit to the fuel remapping.
"those who can carry out a live remap should be able to give you more power, specifically mapped for your car."
Please explain what's really gained by a custom mapping of a stock (generic) Porsche since the
only real effective map change comes from tweaking the timing (and questionable) as Jason's
data (& mine) indicates. In sampling various Porsches (U.S. to U.S. cars), there's insignificant
differences which obviates the custom tweaking.
Please, where're the data?
1. Where's it stated that the 964 is mapped (optimized for) 95? And if so, remapping for 98,
i.e. tweaking the timing at most a few degrees, won't make that much RWHP difference
if any.
2. As posted before, most/all 964 owners don't notice any real performance change.
This has been demostrated with the "in-the-noise-level" difference of posted before/after dyno graphs.
3. Using 98 octane has no benefit to the fuel remapping.
"those who can carry out a live remap should be able to give you more power, specifically mapped for your car."
Please explain what's really gained by a custom mapping of a stock (generic) Porsche since the
only real effective map change comes from tweaking the timing (and questionable) as Jason's
data (& mine) indicates. In sampling various Porsches (U.S. to U.S. cars), there's insignificant
differences which obviates the custom tweaking.
Please, where're the data?
03-17-2007, 12:25 AM
#28
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"If a car is mapped to run on 95 RON and then remapped to run on 98RON"
1. Where's it stated that the 964 is mapped (optimized for) 95? And if so, remapping for 98,
i.e. tweaking the timing at most a few degrees, won't make that much RWHP difference
if any.
2. As posted before, most/all 964 owners don't notice any real performance change.
This has been demostrated with the "in-the-noise-level" difference of posted before/after dyno graphs.
3. Using 98 octane has no benefit to the fuel remapping.
"those who can carry out a live remap should be able to give you more power, specifically mapped for your car."
Please explain what's really gained by a custom mapping of a stock (generic) Porsche since the
only real effective map change comes from tweaking the timing (and questionable) as Jason's
data (& mine) indicates. In sampling various Porsches (U.S. to U.S. cars), there's insignificant
differences which obviates the custom tweaking.
Please, where're the data?
Loren
1. The Euro 964 is mapped for 95 octane gas. Try reading the technical specification.
2. The ignition timing numbers that have appeared on this forum are incorrect.
Maybe a little more understanding is required. I have no ambition to teach Motronic calibration to anyone as abrasive as yourself.
3. I have fuel/timing remapped 964 motors on chassis and engine dynos .
Done properly with a motor running on Euro 98 RON around +20bhp is acheived.
For a little education take a look at the 964RS which acheived +10 bhp minimum with a very small recalibration.
The fuel quality available in the USA is a very real situation . Maybe that is what is leading to your views ?
Now I will shut up as this thing has gone beyond enjoyement for me.
Geoff
1. Where's it stated that the 964 is mapped (optimized for) 95? And if so, remapping for 98,
i.e. tweaking the timing at most a few degrees, won't make that much RWHP difference
if any.
2. As posted before, most/all 964 owners don't notice any real performance change.
This has been demostrated with the "in-the-noise-level" difference of posted before/after dyno graphs.
3. Using 98 octane has no benefit to the fuel remapping.
"those who can carry out a live remap should be able to give you more power, specifically mapped for your car."
Please explain what's really gained by a custom mapping of a stock (generic) Porsche since the
only real effective map change comes from tweaking the timing (and questionable) as Jason's
data (& mine) indicates. In sampling various Porsches (U.S. to U.S. cars), there's insignificant
differences which obviates the custom tweaking.
Please, where're the data?
Loren
1. The Euro 964 is mapped for 95 octane gas. Try reading the technical specification.
2. The ignition timing numbers that have appeared on this forum are incorrect.
Maybe a little more understanding is required. I have no ambition to teach Motronic calibration to anyone as abrasive as yourself.
3. I have fuel/timing remapped 964 motors on chassis and engine dynos .
Done properly with a motor running on Euro 98 RON around +20bhp is acheived.
For a little education take a look at the 964RS which acheived +10 bhp minimum with a very small recalibration.
The fuel quality available in the USA is a very real situation . Maybe that is what is leading to your views ?
Now I will shut up as this thing has gone beyond enjoyement for me.
Geoff
03-17-2007, 12:54 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by Red rooster
The ignition timing numbers that have appeared on this forum are incorrect.
Originally Posted by Lorenfb
Please, where're the data?
Last edited by JasonAndreas; 03-17-2007 at 04:05 AM.
03-17-2007, 10:01 AM
#30
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Jason,
You know that I didnt want to critise your plots . What is amazing is that
companies like RUF and even Porsche-special wish have all used timing /fuelling remapping to generate more power when 98RON fuel is being used .It has been so wide spread and proven that statements that it cannot work are beyond belief. I am staggered .
Geoff
You know that I didnt want to critise your plots . What is amazing is that
companies like RUF and even Porsche-special wish have all used timing /fuelling remapping to generate more power when 98RON fuel is being used .It has been so wide spread and proven that statements that it cannot work are beyond belief. I am staggered .
Geoff