Patrick L

I installed Bilstein HD with Gemballa red C2/C4 spring recently. I've heard that Gemballa spring is actually the H&R with Gemballa painting and marks, so I bought the set from my friend's parts stock.

The car was better than the old and leaking stock suspension, but the car bumps on smooth roads and on worse pavements in the corner, I even felt the rear was left the ground and lost grip some times. In the corner, I njeed to fight with steering wheel (it's ok in straight, and alighment is good), and the car has severe body roll i the corner. It's hard to turn the corner smoothly. I talked to an expert and let him drive my car. His first impression is that springs are too stiff for the shocks. He thought the spring is too hard for the rear anti-roll bar as well, which resulted in severe body roll.

So I changed the springs back to stock and keep the HD. I'll go pick the car tonight and test drive it, see if it becomes better. The issue is the car is even higher than stock due to higher spring seats on front HDs, which looks like an SUV (it also has 4WD... ).

My questions are, how do I tell if the spring is too stiff for the shock? Will tyre condition affect the body roll (my tyres are not in very good condition)? Is red C2/C4 Gemballa spring really the same as H&R? (can't get the spring rate of these) Has anyone here use HDs with stock spring? How do you feel about this?

Thanks!

chancecasey

I have HD's on stock springs and like the combo. I would rather have H&R green springs, but since my wife still drives the car having lower stiffer springs is not an option for me yet. Bilstein supposedly valved HDs for the stock springs. People have had the HDs revalved for stiffer springs, and have also run them without re-valving on both H&R reds and greens. Most have no complaints - the spring rates from stock to H&R green isn't that big of a difference.

You also need to get it aligned to spec or whatever deviation from spec you want. Changing springs usually changes the alignment - most importanly camber and toe. Just because the car drives straight doesn't mean it's aligned properly.

Colin 90 C2

H&R springs are progressive, therefore will initially exhibit body roll under cornering. Once the progressive part of the spring compresses, the spring will then act like stiffer stock springs.

Most aftermarket springs are progressive so that everyday driving will be more comfortable.

It is an uneasy feeling at initial turn-in but you do get used to it.

Patrick L

Got the car back last night and I do feel the turn-in is much smoother than before. However, the car sits so high that really looks strange....
I think it might be the road condition here in Taiwan is not as good, or Gemballa springs are stiffer than H&R. I'll go try the mountain roads this weekend.
What's the softest lowering spring available? Will Eibach Pro kit or Euro M030 be softer than H&R?

Thanks!

chancecasey

Don't know the softest available, but here are a few data points, collected here and elsewhere...

89-91 Stock 158/189
92-94 Stock 169/189
91-94 Option M030 169/263 (progressive rear, working rate)
93-94 RS America 169/263 (progressive rear, working rate)
91-92 Turbo 3.3 169/263 (progressive rear, working rate)
1992 Carrera RS (European) 247/440 (progressive front and rear, working rate)
1992 Carrera Cup USA 247/440 (progressive front and rear, working rate)

Progressive Fronts and Rears, static and working rates
H&R Green F-190/255 R-220/265
H&R Red F-250/275 R-270/295

cobalt

Chance,

Great info, I had been looking for this for quite some time. Although you have the Green and red H&R reversed. the Red is the stiffer turbo spring and the green is the softer C2/C4 spring. I had been told that the turbo springs were the same as the RSA and M030 springs which this seems to confirm. Although the US 94 turbo unlike the 91-92 had non progressive rate rear springs.

I am currently trying to figure out what to do with the 93 C2 I purchased. It has new HD's and Eibach Pro springs. The eibachs are initially softer than the H&R greens by feel but appear to be stiffer for the working rate. A bit too sloppy for my taste until you push it and it is not bad. I am thinking of adding TRG sways to help.

I have the Bilstein/H&R setup in my turbo and they are softer than the factory springs, or so it may seem because they were non progressive. The factory springs had little give and appeared to be way to stiff.

I might need to run factory springs in the C2 and If so I would use the Bilstein shocks with my turbo springs. It appears those running Bilstein and factory springs are happy.

mark lintott

Hi Patrick

Long time no see. Hope you have your suspension sorted out ok by now. I have HR Reds on mine with Bilstein HD's and it rides pretty well even on our wonderful roads! Are you driving this w/e - if so text me - we could meet up..?

Cheers

Mark

chancecasey

Just fixed the chart - thanks!

Maybe we should all start updating wikipedia with this info? Have people tried it before? Does the info get trashed by "bad guys"?

Patrick L

Chance,

What's your ride height? My front has a huge gap than I can insert my palm vertically (not scientific...will go measure it by ruler next time) between tyre and wheel arch, which appears to be higher than using stock struts. My car is ROW spec.

BTW, it seems the issue might be the Gemballa springs are not identical to H&R green or red...I'll check with Gemballa see if they can provide any information about the spring rates...

Really like to change the SUV back to sports car again...