Ethanol - Discuss.
01-16-2007, 01:45 PM
#16
Drifting
Ineresting article aout the water supply & Ethanol.
http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/patzek...10_25_2006.htm
CNN had an article about Tortilla prices in Mexico going up 10 to 15 percent due to the demand for corn in Ethanol production.
Maybe down the road Ethanol fuels will be $2 a gallon, get 20% less fuel economy the gas but the McDonalds burger will be $10
I think the 964 will be fine with 10% ethanol as long as you keep the tank clean, change fuel flters reguarly, the rubber fuel lines are in good shape and don't let the fuel sit for a long time. The plus is that your fuel lines won't freeze and there is less chance of pre-detonation.
John
http://petroleum.berkeley.edu/patzek...10_25_2006.htm
CNN had an article about Tortilla prices in Mexico going up 10 to 15 percent due to the demand for corn in Ethanol production.
Maybe down the road Ethanol fuels will be $2 a gallon, get 20% less fuel economy the gas but the McDonalds burger will be $10
I think the 964 will be fine with 10% ethanol as long as you keep the tank clean, change fuel flters reguarly, the rubber fuel lines are in good shape and don't let the fuel sit for a long time. The plus is that your fuel lines won't freeze and there is less chance of pre-detonation.
John
01-16-2007, 02:26 PM
#17
Three Wheelin'
The problem with the Tesla isn't that someone killed it , it cost way to much .[/QUOTE]
The Tesla coss less than most exotic cars, is quicker than most, and doesn't pollute. Mind you, you don't get the growl and burbling that most of us love.
http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/performance.php
And they did a nice job not to overcook the the interior:
http://www.teslamotors.com/styling/cockpit/cockpit.php
The Tesla coss less than most exotic cars, is quicker than most, and doesn't pollute. Mind you, you don't get the growl and burbling that most of us love.
http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/performance.php
And they did a nice job not to overcook the the interior:
http://www.teslamotors.com/styling/cockpit/cockpit.php
01-16-2007, 04:06 PM
#18
Nordschleife Master
I went for a look see , "sold out ".
"The Tesla coss less than most exotic cars,"
How much for a tesla ? vs How much for a honda vx ?
Its great that its cheaper than an enzo , but thats not going to get it into mom and pop garage .
How much does the battery pack in the tesla cost to replace ?
When I go to fill the tank , away from home , on the tesla ?
I'm all for electric cars , but the tesla is not one I'm hot for .
"The Tesla coss less than most exotic cars,"
How much for a tesla ? vs How much for a honda vx ?
Its great that its cheaper than an enzo , but thats not going to get it into mom and pop garage .
How much does the battery pack in the tesla cost to replace ?
When I go to fill the tank , away from home , on the tesla ?
I'm all for electric cars , but the tesla is not one I'm hot for .
01-16-2007, 04:31 PM
#19
Instructor
I think the original question was regarding what a 964 owner can do (if anything) facing the inevitable situation of having to use 10% ethanol based gasoline. Are there any additives ,etc that might counteract the negative effects of ethanol,etc. I have added a petroleum based "corrosion inhibitor", don't know if it does any good, but assumed it can't hurt.
Interested to learn what other owners are doing but really don't want to hear anything more about the world corn crop situation.
Interested to learn what other owners are doing but really don't want to hear anything more about the world corn crop situation.
01-16-2007, 04:47 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by springer3
Growing corn on crop land to make it is not the right way to go.
I just don't believe that it's cheaper to buy oil from the Middle East or South America than it is to produce E85 or biodiesel right here at home. The cost of searching for, extracting, processing, transporting, etc, oil is astronomical. They also never talk about how these biofuels are renewable.
At some point we probably won't be allowed to drive our cars at all if they're still burning gasoline. There'll be some whisper-quiet new model with a pre-recorded soundtrack...sad.
01-16-2007, 07:05 PM
#21
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Indycam
I went for a look see , "sold out ".
"The Tesla coss less than most exotic cars,"
How much for a tesla ? vs How much for a honda vx ?
Huh?
Its great that its cheaper than an enzo , but thats not going to get it into mom and pop garage .
Like the enzo, I don't think the Telsa is necessarly meant for mom and pop, though some mum and pops have bought them.
How much does the battery pack in the tesla cost to replace ?
Not sure, but you apparently get over 100,000 miles on a set of batteries, and the cost of recyling batteries is built into the cost of the car, and it costs about one cent a mile to operate.
When I go to fill the tank , away from home , on the tesla ?
Apparently you can plug it in away from home. Like you do your cell phone.
I'm all for electric cars , but the tesla is not one I'm hot for .
"The Tesla coss less than most exotic cars,"
How much for a tesla ? vs How much for a honda vx ?
Huh?
Its great that its cheaper than an enzo , but thats not going to get it into mom and pop garage .
Like the enzo, I don't think the Telsa is necessarly meant for mom and pop, though some mum and pops have bought them.
How much does the battery pack in the tesla cost to replace ?
Not sure, but you apparently get over 100,000 miles on a set of batteries, and the cost of recyling batteries is built into the cost of the car, and it costs about one cent a mile to operate.
When I go to fill the tank , away from home , on the tesla ?
Apparently you can plug it in away from home. Like you do your cell phone.
I'm all for electric cars , but the tesla is not one I'm hot for .
01-17-2007, 07:33 PM
#22
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Without getting into the politics of ethanol - it does effectively change where stoichiometric is in a voltage sense on your O2-sensor. By that I mean by adding ethanol to the fuel supply your O2 sensor will observe the fuel mixture as being leaner - thereby causing it to signal the ECU to increase the injector duty cycle; over the identical conditions were you using a non-ethanol mix.
So you might observe the gallons/mile consumption of your vehicle get a little worse. Functionally I've been forced to be running 10% mix in mar cars (IL and TX) for the last number of years and it's never been a problem. Even in CIS equipped cars running some Techron through the system every 15k miles kept all the parts working correctly.
Do I like it? No. Does it hurt anything? Not in the vehicles that I've observed.
So you might observe the gallons/mile consumption of your vehicle get a little worse. Functionally I've been forced to be running 10% mix in mar cars (IL and TX) for the last number of years and it's never been a problem. Even in CIS equipped cars running some Techron through the system every 15k miles kept all the parts working correctly.
Do I like it? No. Does it hurt anything? Not in the vehicles that I've observed.
01-17-2007, 09:07 PM
#23
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Talking Ethanol
Originally Posted by rhyd911
Hi,
This question is really directed at the US contingent. I have read the other thread in this forum, but I thought it's been a year since and worth re-opening the topic.
Here in Aus, they are talking more and more about moving to a 10% blend of ethanol with fuel. Since we didn't have this in the UK, I'm not really up on the details of whether this is a good or a bad thing (Please remove greenie caps before answering) for our cars.
My basic chemistry reminds me that Ethanol is a hygroscopic substance and I know from bitter experience that water in the fuel is extraordinarily bad. I once had to replace a fair few expensive components on the K-Jet Injection system on my old SC due to rust. I have also read that it can damage rubber fuel lines over time depending on the rubber compound.
So my questions are thus;
Have there been any studies into long term 10% blend usage specifically with the 3.6 engine and standard fuel injection system.
Has anyone had any fuel system problems that could be attributed to component incompatibility with the fuel blend?
Australian standard unleaded is 91RON, I always use the Premium 95RON (as directed by my fuel flap
). What is the octane rating for the 10% blend or are there varying levels as there are now? Will I have to have my timing changed?
Would I notice any performance difference between a tank of premium and a tank of Ethanol blend?
I read that Brazil leads the world with Ethanol fuel usage at something like a 20% blend. I read somewhere that anything up to 17% is ok for most cars and above that component deterioration increases exponentially. Surely this is the way every country will go eventually?
TIA,
R.
This question is really directed at the US contingent. I have read the other thread in this forum, but I thought it's been a year since and worth re-opening the topic.
Here in Aus, they are talking more and more about moving to a 10% blend of ethanol with fuel. Since we didn't have this in the UK, I'm not really up on the details of whether this is a good or a bad thing (Please remove greenie caps before answering) for our cars.
My basic chemistry reminds me that Ethanol is a hygroscopic substance and I know from bitter experience that water in the fuel is extraordinarily bad. I once had to replace a fair few expensive components on the K-Jet Injection system on my old SC due to rust. I have also read that it can damage rubber fuel lines over time depending on the rubber compound.
So my questions are thus;
Have there been any studies into long term 10% blend usage specifically with the 3.6 engine and standard fuel injection system.
Has anyone had any fuel system problems that could be attributed to component incompatibility with the fuel blend?
Australian standard unleaded is 91RON, I always use the Premium 95RON (as directed by my fuel flap
). What is the octane rating for the 10% blend or are there varying levels as there are now? Will I have to have my timing changed?Would I notice any performance difference between a tank of premium and a tank of Ethanol blend?
I read that Brazil leads the world with Ethanol fuel usage at something like a 20% blend. I read somewhere that anything up to 17% is ok for most cars and above that component deterioration increases exponentially. Surely this is the way every country will go eventually?
TIA,
R.
A recent Panorama (Porsche Club of America magazine) had an article about Ethanol and the various Porsche models, based on a member's research in Seattle. His conclusions, IIRC, was that up to a 7.8% concentration it wasn't problematic, though mileage and power did go down by around 4% (less BTUs in the alcohol, though a bit better octane).
He did cite problems with 10%, however, something to do with a tipping point in moisture absorbtion. Ethanol will pick up moisture and after a small amount (couple of percent) it will separate out, causing HUGE corrosion problems. It also means it can't be shipped in the same pipelines (they're not water-tight enough), more care needed in storage, etc.
An anecdotal report about New England going to E10 included huge water absorbtion problems (spring 2006 was very wet and the tanks were overrun with water), ruining the fuel pumps of numerous Minis, of course not covered under warranty.
He did talk about fuel system components, but I don't remember how the 964 fared. It was newest best, oldest worst, with avoid at all costs for the SC and before, IIRC.
I can't find the article on their website, but it broke it down into generations of fuel systems, and how well they'd be able to adapt.
The octane around here varies by brand and even station.
Around here (Iowa) the particulars are (in ROM+RON/2):
The premiums:
BP Ultimate 93 (no alcohol)
Shell V Power 93 (no alcohol) only 1 station, though
Shell V Power 91 (no alcohol) 2 stations
Shell V Power 93 (10% Ethanol), all the rest of the Shells (around 20)
Phillips 66 premium 93 (no alcohol)
Mid grade:
89 octane, almost all of them have 10% Ethanol (there's a reduced road use tax on Ethanol, which is why so many Shells sell their premium that way)
Cheap grade:
87 octane. I don't have a good feel for with/without Ethanol, as I never buy it except for the lawn mower and snow blower.
The short answer is avoid Ethanol if at possible. The 996 and 997s can most readily adapt, but there are still issues.
We also have E85, which is 85% Ethanol. Instant CEL and possible engine damage if used in a Porsche.
If you're really interested, PM me and I'll see if I can find the article.
HTH,
Jim
01-18-2007, 07:14 AM
#24
Intermediate
Thread Starter
Thanks for the replies guys. As Australia tends to follow the US closer than the UK, unfortunately it seems this will become reality.
It does baffle me however that a substance that obviously causes issues in cars past a certain era can be introduced in such a blase way. There are certainly no scientists in the media here mentioning these issues. All we hear is to the contrary unless you go digging.
I suppose it's the policy to make us all green and tidy and reduce our dependency on the black gold. Are we all supposed to go out and chop in our older vehicles for the new cars that have fuel systems designed for this blend?
I'm sure this is an option for a lot of people, but I bet there's a heck of a lot more that won't be able to do this financially and will get stuck with a fuel that they know is killing their engine. Or even worse, have believed the hype and don't know it's killing their engine, only to have it break down and then be faced with a hefty repair bill.
As Porsche owners we are lucky enough to have an powerplant that can cope with most things. In the UK when they stopped selling leaded fuel, I swapped the tank and filters in my SC, filled up with unleaded and never looked back. I bet there's a lot of other marques that are not as robust. There must be a lot of classic car owners quaking at the prospect of this new challenge.
I could always buy a diesel, but I don't think I'll be transplanting it into the rear end of my car.
It does baffle me however that a substance that obviously causes issues in cars past a certain era can be introduced in such a blase way. There are certainly no scientists in the media here mentioning these issues. All we hear is to the contrary unless you go digging.
I suppose it's the policy to make us all green and tidy and reduce our dependency on the black gold. Are we all supposed to go out and chop in our older vehicles for the new cars that have fuel systems designed for this blend?
I'm sure this is an option for a lot of people, but I bet there's a heck of a lot more that won't be able to do this financially and will get stuck with a fuel that they know is killing their engine. Or even worse, have believed the hype and don't know it's killing their engine, only to have it break down and then be faced with a hefty repair bill.
As Porsche owners we are lucky enough to have an powerplant that can cope with most things. In the UK when they stopped selling leaded fuel, I swapped the tank and filters in my SC, filled up with unleaded and never looked back. I bet there's a lot of other marques that are not as robust. There must be a lot of classic car owners quaking at the prospect of this new challenge.
I could always buy a diesel, but I don't think I'll be transplanting it into the rear end of my car.
01-18-2007, 07:43 AM
#25
Addict
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My bet is we will always be able to buy alcohol-free fuel. Some, possibly many stations will recognize a market and continue to offer at least one alcohol-free pump. Aviation fuel will be ethanol-free for some time to come. There will be ethanol shortages as I doubt there will be enough production to match the gasoline supply.
If there are problems because of poor fuel quality, the public outcry will force the politicians to take action. Gasohol at only 5% ethanol was sold in the US during the fuel crisis in the early 1970s. Gasohol quickly disappeared because nobody would buy it after it caused problems. I had a long tow home the one time I purchased gasohol for my early 911. I drained almost 2 gallons of water from my fuel tank and had to rebuild the carburetors. Fuel station owners were caught mixiing extra water with gasohol because they thought the alcohol would let it mix. That is true up to a point, but greed being what it is, they went overboard.
If there are problems because of poor fuel quality, the public outcry will force the politicians to take action. Gasohol at only 5% ethanol was sold in the US during the fuel crisis in the early 1970s. Gasohol quickly disappeared because nobody would buy it after it caused problems. I had a long tow home the one time I purchased gasohol for my early 911. I drained almost 2 gallons of water from my fuel tank and had to rebuild the carburetors. Fuel station owners were caught mixiing extra water with gasohol because they thought the alcohol would let it mix. That is true up to a point, but greed being what it is, they went overboard.
01-18-2007, 07:13 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by Chris M.
I just don't believe that it's cheaper to buy oil from the Middle East or South America than it is to produce E85 or biodiesel right here at home. The cost of searching for, extracting, processing, transporting, etc, oil is astronomical.
Noah
01-18-2007, 07:32 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by springer3
There will be ethanol shortages as I doubt there will be enough production to match the gasoline supply.
Noah
01-19-2007, 12:13 PM
#29
Nordschleife Master
Hiya N51
"There will be no demand for ethanol, an inefficient energy."
How does Brazil do it ?
Are Brazil's economics special ?
Are cars Brazil's in special ?
Why would they put a Ethanol only motor in a crop duster if the fuel is so bad in so many ways ?
The major requirement of a crop duster motor is that it never quits or lose power even for a moment .
Why would the Indy 500 switch over to 100% Ethanol , if Ethanol is everything bad and evil ?
"Boom and bust, with many small players washed out..."
Sounds like the early auto industry or the early personal computer industry or or or ...
"There will be no demand for ethanol, an inefficient energy."
How does Brazil do it ?
Are Brazil's economics special ?
Are cars Brazil's in special ?
Why would they put a Ethanol only motor in a crop duster if the fuel is so bad in so many ways ?
The major requirement of a crop duster motor is that it never quits or lose power even for a moment .
Why would the Indy 500 switch over to 100% Ethanol , if Ethanol is everything bad and evil ?
"Boom and bust, with many small players washed out..."
Sounds like the early auto industry or the early personal computer industry or or or ...
01-19-2007, 01:19 PM
#30
Drifting
Here is CA, Ethanol is in every pump... except at the track! So I fill up on 93 octane non-ethanol fuel there. No ethanol means more power, but higher octane. I wish I had a dyno handy to do some tests. Most people get mixed up about my post, I am not saying higher octane is better, I am saying no Ethanol is better. Anyone got any data to prove/disprove my thesis here?
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hlight=ethanol
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hlight=ethanol