Hello all,

I just joined tonight and have decided to try out this forum thing...

I am looking to buy my first Porsche and had a local Porsche shop recommend to me that I should get a 1987-89 and stay away from the early 964's. That said, I have found a great looking 1991 C2 with 90,500 miles. What kind of expensive problems can I be in for if I get this car? I have read in Excellence about the DMF, head gasket and distributor problems - the Porsche mechanic basically confirmed these things today on the phone.

With this particular 1991 C2, the owner states that he has:
- completed a top end re-build with new valve guides. This was brought on by oil consumption, apparently due to worn guides.
- the clutch was replaced at the same time, OEM flywheel was retained
- all the head studs were replaced with SS ones
- new distributor belt

I sure would appreciate some thoughts on this.

Thanks,
Dan

 

Dan, a common question and one which I asked myself at the time.

Much of what your tech says is true, however the 964 is by far the better car in terms of looks, brakes and performance. Stuff that cannot really be said about the 933 over a 964.

Your tech is right in pointing out some of the problems area's. Top-end are typically redone at 100K miles - although there are cars out there with 150K+ and no rebuild. DMF's failed however most have already been changed within the first 40K. Headbolts can leak - fixed during the topend rebuild, C4 transmissions can be a problem however most are caused by electrical problems rather than mechanical issues. Servicing is more expensive however this (IMHO) is due to there being 12 spark plugs to change rather than 6. Distributor belts can snap - caused by ozone build up, however there is a $10 fix for this and do not forget the rear lights go pinky!

However for me it was a no brainer. The 964 has ABS, power steering and with a few simple mods can be raised to 280bhp with little effort. Brakes are good and it handles really well + it has iconic Porsche styling without those nasty 3.2 bumpers.

Looking at the work already done on the 964 you are looking at its sounds a good one (providing the body and paint are good) as all the major points are covered, however before buying I would recommend a PPI as I would with any Porsche.

Other bits to check.

Should have a good service history
Front wishbone rubbers can become cracked and in need of replacment.
A/C Working- (+ converted to a ozone friendly gas)
Interior Trim should be in fine order - can be expensive replace
Oil pressue should be between 4-5 under acceleration and 1 at idle.
Rust around the front and rear screen - not a prosche problem, but caused by idiots damaging the metalwork when replacing the glass.
Should pull like a train when you boot it.

Other than that all the other points you would check on a normal car.

Hope this helps

Andy

 

Make sure you get documentation on the rebuild. Most 964s with the typical oil leak issues have been fixed by now; these early cars are 16, 17 years old by now so I wouldn't worry too much about it. I doubt someone's put 91K on a car with it leaking all this time.
Have you driven both cars? A friend has a 3.2 that I drive all the time (check my avatar). They are both great cars but night and day different. 3.2 has no power steering so if you're looking at a lot of city driving it's going to require a little more effort. 964 is much quicker. What will you do with the car? Daily driver? DEs? Club racing? Weekend fun car? Answering these questions will help us help you!

c

 

I don't agree that a 87-89 car isn't a match on looks, performance or handling to a 964.

A well sorted 3.2 is awesome. I owned 2 over a 6 year period as daily drivers. True they are harder work to drive but if you want 'pure' they are fabulous!! And simpler and cheaper to run, generally.

No aircon though, but it doesn't usually work on the later cars anyway ...

 

The 3.2 carrera is easy to work on yourself,i did a full service when i had mine.They are also simpler and more reliable.
But the 964 drives a lot nicer and feels less old fashioned.
cheers stu

 

I would want more info on the top end rebuild. Did it include installing the new style cylinders and heads with gaskets or is this a late year 91 (which came with head gaskets)? I don't think I have heard of anyone doing a valve job on a gasketless 3.6L without doing the whole job. Other than that if all checks out and you will use this as a daily driver I would always go with a 964 for the amenities (and of the two I have owned in the past couple years the AC worked perfectly, contrary to te earlier comment) already mentioned.

 

I sure appreciate the help with the technical issues as this is what the purchase decision will be based on. I need a car to be able to have fun in for reasonable operating costs. When the green light came on for a fun car purchase - all right baby your the best! I need to be sure that I won't end up with a money pit and something difficult to sell and get money back out of.

I will be using this car as a weekend driver and perhaps a one day per week commute to work car. With every car that I have owned to date I have done all my own wrenching and intend to be able to do that with a Porsche as well. With it not being needed as a daily driver, I will have the time to do the maint and repair work slowly unitil I get profient with the workings of a Porsche.

I will phone the mechanic that has maintained this car for the currrent owner and find out the details on the top end rebuild as suggested. What components were replaced and with what part style etc..I will post this info as soon as I get it.

Am I correct to be thinking that updated parts are available from either Porche and/or afermarket to completely solve the 964 issues? If so and assuming the worst for the car that I am intersted, what is the approx cost of buying the parts that I would need to make this a solid and reliable performer? I could factor some of this cost into the purchase price perhaps.

Thanks!

 

The reality of it is the 964 could run for years as-is with no issues or costs beyond normal maintenance. Once per year (if under 5K) oil changes for Mobil 1 will run around $100 DIY, Brake flush around $40 for ATE Blue/Gold, Transmission $75, Valve adj. every 20K or so free DIY (oil change usually done then also). Of course brake pads, tires, etc. are depending on current condition. Pads can run between $150-$300 per set. Pretty much ALL parts are available through places like Pelican Parts and other 3rd party sellers and you can look at prices there for wear items like clutch, etc. I think in general anyone buying a used Porsche of ANY type should have $5K "available" after the sale. If the car checks out fine for compression/leakdown, has has the 964 "issues" resolved, and is what you want then that's all you can do... no use worrying about "what-if's" because ANYTHING can happen to something mechanical at any time..

 

Having just made the swap from an '89 911 to a '92 C2 the differences are quite fresh for me. I loved the rather raw and rough nature of the '89. The AC sucked but the car was a blast to drive. Having a very supportive wife, I wanted to get her more involved, and the C2 was the path to that involvement. It is a much more refined car. The power steering and extra power make a huge difference in handling. The truely functional AC makes driving it in the summer in Alabama a reasonable option. And the ABS and air bags make it safer for us all.

I'm missing the '89 but I'm very happy with the '92.

 

I have had my 91 C2 for 3 1/2 years and 8K miles with the only breakdown or running expense being a $30 DME relay. Of course this doesnt count towards mods or normal wear items like tires and brake pads. I have a TIP and found this to be the cheapest Porsche to maintain of all 3 I owned in the past in the way of problems.

 

One caveat: If you hire the valve adjustment out, it is typically 6 hours of labor ($550 to $800 USD). I haven't done it yet myself on my 964, but I'm told the valve adjustment is a real bear on these cars. But lots of folks here do it themselves.

 

Dan,

Hello from a fellow Vancouverite. Here's my 2 cents worth:

1. As an admittedly biased '90 C2 owner I would have to say that the mechanical, styling, safety and creature comfort updates in the 964 make it a nicer drive.
2. If done properly the work already done on your candidate car is a fairly good insurance policy against major mechanical expense in the near future.
3. As already mentioned it would be good to know who did the engine work. I recently had my top end done and can share some insight into the local specialists if you would like.
4. Similarly for general service, are there good records and who did the work? Weissach, Scan, Targa and of course MCL are all top notch. There are other good independents too.Wouldn't hurt to talk to the mechanic who knows the car.
5. As with any purchase you have to pay a lot of attention to your general impression of the vehicle and whether any issues are either correctable or can be lived with.
6. And as others have said, if you're serious, get an inspection done.

If you have any other specific questions send me a private message. I'd be happy to help.


Jim G.

 

I just made the jump this year from an 87 to a 93 for a few reasons. This car was not a DD for me - I drove it mainly on weekends and to 5-6 DE events per year. The Carerra is an excellent car, but I wanted to upgrade it specifically for DE events. When I started looking at the upgrade prices, I figured I might as well first spend the money on a 964 to use that as my starting point.

Ways the 964 is superior: brakes (including ABS), suspension, power (esp if you do some upgrades whereas the potential additional power is debateable with the Carerra) and HVAC system. Depending on the model 964 you get, you will also have stock 17" wheels on the car (vs. 16" on the Carerra).

The Carerra definitely gives you a 'rawer' experience and is a pleasure to drive. Maintenance is easier and a little cheaper (only 6 spark plugs to buy) and you don't need to deal with the 964's undertray (if you keep it on).

To me the 964 is definitely worth the few thousand dollar difference (it cost me $3500 to 'trade-up') - both cars were in the same condition and the 964 actually had fewer miles.

Just my 2 cents...

 

and don't forget the 964 uses coilover suspension vs. the old torsion bar setup... not that that is a bad thing.

 

I was able to speak with the mechanic that did the top end rebuild on the 91 C2 here are some points from that discussion:
- the cylinders were re-ringed
- the OEM Nickasil cylinders were honed with a special hone (they were still within spec)
- valve guides were replaced with special magnesium bronze guide material
- guide and valve were each diamond honed as a pair to match
- this shop has been using this guide material for 9 years has had great success.
- the OEM DMF was left and the replaced clutch components were the updated Porsche units.

I now have to do a car inspection (I've only seen pictures so far)...about 3 hrs. away and from that determine if I proceed to a PPI. The key item would probably be the leak down test.

I apreciate all the tips and comments that you have all posted.

Comments welcomed!