Ethanol in 964's
08-03-2006, 02:10 AM
#16
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Which Pano?
Originally Posted by Hildy911
Just read the Pano article. I believe it said that 17% is the threshold at which a 911 will run okay. After that it degrades rapidly. The original question in the Panorama was-"Will E85 work in a 911?". I believe the 911 in question was a later car, however, I believe it's safe to say our older cars would fair worse if anything. The answer to the question was "NO!!" Don't even try it. If it even starts, it will run badly. If not beat too hard the car will suffer no permanent affects once the gas is drained and refilled with proper fuel.
I have used 10% with no ill affects in any of my 3 911s and one outboard, not to mention various lawn implements. However, I go out of my way to get no-blend 93 octane and only get 10% ethanol in a pinch.
I have used 10% with no ill affects in any of my 3 911s and one outboard, not to mention various lawn implements. However, I go out of my way to get no-blend 93 octane and only get 10% ethanol in a pinch.
08-03-2006, 03:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Weiner-Rennsport Systems
Snowbird:
Ethanol is, in many respects, a crappy choice for motor fuel,...
Butanol would have been a FAR better choice.
That said, ethanol possesses two bad characteristics that must be considered when its blended with gasolines (as well as E85). One,...its hygroscopic, thats to say that it absorbs moisture and the other is that its corrosive to many metals and most elastomers (rubber parts). The way to deal with the former is by using fuel additives that absorb the dissolved water and the latter is dealt with by the use of Viton rubber in fuel system components that come in contact with the gasoline.
Since we have little say in what parts are used in these cars, I do recommend a maintenance schedule that calls for replacement of certain rubber fuel lines around 100K to proactively prevent a failure. Injectors do have Viton seals so those are not a problem.
Ethanol is, in many respects, a crappy choice for motor fuel,...
Butanol would have been a FAR better choice.That said, ethanol possesses two bad characteristics that must be considered when its blended with gasolines (as well as E85). One,...its hygroscopic, thats to say that it absorbs moisture and the other is that its corrosive to many metals and most elastomers (rubber parts). The way to deal with the former is by using fuel additives that absorb the dissolved water and the latter is dealt with by the use of Viton rubber in fuel system components that come in contact with the gasoline.
Since we have little say in what parts are used in these cars, I do recommend a maintenance schedule that calls for replacement of certain rubber fuel lines around 100K to proactively prevent a failure. Injectors do have Viton seals so those are not a problem.
Could you elaborate on how a 10% ETOH blend is metal corrosive? Also, how can a fuel additive absorb "dissolved water" - that which has already been absorbed by ethanol? Even if possible, what's the benefit?
08-03-2006, 09:43 AM
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Friends. Let me make two points very clear.
1. We have a big problem with the ethanol, especially in boats
2. We DO NOT have the option of using gasoline without it (in N.J. and other states).
From BoatUS magazine back in '04...... This additive has been a big help.
"Engines are not very efficient at burning all of the fuel that is fed into the cylinders. The result of this incomplete combustion is reduced power, production of harmful emissions and carbon formation. By changing the bonding structure of the hydrocarbon molecules that make up fuel. enzymes in Startron[R] allow more oxygen to attach to the fuel components at the point of ignition, resulting in a more complete burn of the fuel charge. Startron[R] treated fuel therefore produces greater power, increases fuel economy up to 15% and shows up to a 90% reduction in commonly encountered emissions. Carbon monoxide is reduced up to 40%. Diesel soot is now classified as a carcinogen and a toxic air contaminant. Enzyme modified diesel fuel can reduce soot by over one half in just a day and continued use can reduce soot by up to 80%.
Cleaning Injectors, The Fuel Delivery System and Combustion Chambers While Removing Carbon Build-Up
When more of the fuel charge is burned there is a dramatic drop in the formation of performance robbing carbon deposits. After several hours of operating with Startron[R] enhanced fuel, the engine's concussive forces can blow all existing carbon off the pistons, completely cleaning the combustion chamber without the use of solvent-based carbon removing additives. As the enzymes in Startron[R] are naturally powerful surface-active agents, deposits are removed from the fuel tank, fuel lines, injectors, valves, pistons and spark plugs. Startron[R] accomplishes these cleaning tasks quickly and at the lowest per gallon cost of any product on the market.
Once existing carbon deposits are removed and future deposit formation is prevented, knocking and pinging (pre-detonation) are eliminated. Engines develop full power while running smoother and quieter. An added benefit of a deposit free combustion chamber is that fuel burns at a properly controlled rate, helping to greatly boost fuel economy.
Microbial Growth In Fuel
When gasoline or diesel fuel sits in a tank with excessive air space, the daily temperature changes produce condensation (water formation) on tank walls. This water falls into the fuel where it sinks to the bottom providing a breeding ground for microbial spores that feed on hydrocarbon fuels.
Known as "diesel algae" these are primarily fungi, yeast and mold contaminants. If left untreated, diesel algae will ruin the fuel causing clogs in filters, fuel lines and injectors. Common treatment for this problem up until now has been the use of a biocide to kill existing growth and prevent a future infestation. The use of a biocide can however cause other problems. Once the growth is killed, the resulting biomass settles to the tank bottom where it decays forming organic acids. The acids then deteriorate the fuel and cause corrosion of the tank walls, injectors and fuel delivery system. Additionally, biocides can be harmful to all those who handle them or come in contact with treated fuel plus, they can cause environmental damage if spilled. Startron[R] uses its nontoxic enzyme technology to breakdown microbial growth into sub-micron size particles. These microscopic particles are then either safely burned away or filtered out. Startron[R] is the only treatment that prevents biological growth and eliminates existing growth without the use of toxic chemicals.
Treating Water In Fuel
As mentioned before, water can wind up in your gas or diesel fuel as a result of condensation in the tank. Because water is heavier than fuel, it sinks to the bottom of the tank and forms a distinct water layer. The fuel pick-up tube is located at the bottom of the tank so, once this happens, water is supplied to your fuel pump. Obviously the engine can not burn water; soon it starts to sputter and eventually stops running. Additionally, water is corrosive so it deteriorates tank walls and metals in the fuel delivery system. The enzymes in Startron[R] prevent the water molecules that are in fuel from combining and forming a distinct water layer. Water is reduced to sub-micron size particles that cannot cause corrosion and are safely burned during normal combustion.
Stabilizing Fuel Chemistry
Diesel fuel and gasoline are not formulated to be stored for more than 90 days. After this period of time, they begin to oxidize, forming sludge, varnish, gum and other harmful deposits. The ability of the fuel to burn properly is diminished as chemical components start to break down. Startron[R] uses its enzyme technology to maintain fuel quality and prevent the deterioration of fuel components. Diesel fuel treated with Startron[R] has a shelf life in excess of two years. Gasoline, which tends to evaporate volatile components more quickly than diesel, remains stable for one year.
Once hydrocarbon fuels deteriorate, the process of cleaning and rejuvenating them is extremely expensive. Enzymes contained in Startron[R] can in fact "repair" old fuel, restoring cetane and octane ratings, dispersing water and breaking down sludge and other deposits. Startron[R]'s enzyme formula may well be the most cost effective fuel remediation technology in the world."
1. We have a big problem with the ethanol, especially in boats
2. We DO NOT have the option of using gasoline without it (in N.J. and other states).
Originally Posted by N51
Steve,
Could you elaborate on how a 10% ETOH blend is metal corrosive? Also, how can a fuel additive absorb "dissolved water" - that which has already been absorbed by ethanol? Even if possible, what's the benefit?
Could you elaborate on how a 10% ETOH blend is metal corrosive? Also, how can a fuel additive absorb "dissolved water" - that which has already been absorbed by ethanol? Even if possible, what's the benefit?
"Engines are not very efficient at burning all of the fuel that is fed into the cylinders. The result of this incomplete combustion is reduced power, production of harmful emissions and carbon formation. By changing the bonding structure of the hydrocarbon molecules that make up fuel. enzymes in Startron[R] allow more oxygen to attach to the fuel components at the point of ignition, resulting in a more complete burn of the fuel charge. Startron[R] treated fuel therefore produces greater power, increases fuel economy up to 15% and shows up to a 90% reduction in commonly encountered emissions. Carbon monoxide is reduced up to 40%. Diesel soot is now classified as a carcinogen and a toxic air contaminant. Enzyme modified diesel fuel can reduce soot by over one half in just a day and continued use can reduce soot by up to 80%.
Cleaning Injectors, The Fuel Delivery System and Combustion Chambers While Removing Carbon Build-Up
When more of the fuel charge is burned there is a dramatic drop in the formation of performance robbing carbon deposits. After several hours of operating with Startron[R] enhanced fuel, the engine's concussive forces can blow all existing carbon off the pistons, completely cleaning the combustion chamber without the use of solvent-based carbon removing additives. As the enzymes in Startron[R] are naturally powerful surface-active agents, deposits are removed from the fuel tank, fuel lines, injectors, valves, pistons and spark plugs. Startron[R] accomplishes these cleaning tasks quickly and at the lowest per gallon cost of any product on the market.
Once existing carbon deposits are removed and future deposit formation is prevented, knocking and pinging (pre-detonation) are eliminated. Engines develop full power while running smoother and quieter. An added benefit of a deposit free combustion chamber is that fuel burns at a properly controlled rate, helping to greatly boost fuel economy.
Microbial Growth In Fuel
When gasoline or diesel fuel sits in a tank with excessive air space, the daily temperature changes produce condensation (water formation) on tank walls. This water falls into the fuel where it sinks to the bottom providing a breeding ground for microbial spores that feed on hydrocarbon fuels.
Known as "diesel algae" these are primarily fungi, yeast and mold contaminants. If left untreated, diesel algae will ruin the fuel causing clogs in filters, fuel lines and injectors. Common treatment for this problem up until now has been the use of a biocide to kill existing growth and prevent a future infestation. The use of a biocide can however cause other problems. Once the growth is killed, the resulting biomass settles to the tank bottom where it decays forming organic acids. The acids then deteriorate the fuel and cause corrosion of the tank walls, injectors and fuel delivery system. Additionally, biocides can be harmful to all those who handle them or come in contact with treated fuel plus, they can cause environmental damage if spilled. Startron[R] uses its nontoxic enzyme technology to breakdown microbial growth into sub-micron size particles. These microscopic particles are then either safely burned away or filtered out. Startron[R] is the only treatment that prevents biological growth and eliminates existing growth without the use of toxic chemicals.
Treating Water In Fuel
As mentioned before, water can wind up in your gas or diesel fuel as a result of condensation in the tank. Because water is heavier than fuel, it sinks to the bottom of the tank and forms a distinct water layer. The fuel pick-up tube is located at the bottom of the tank so, once this happens, water is supplied to your fuel pump. Obviously the engine can not burn water; soon it starts to sputter and eventually stops running. Additionally, water is corrosive so it deteriorates tank walls and metals in the fuel delivery system. The enzymes in Startron[R] prevent the water molecules that are in fuel from combining and forming a distinct water layer. Water is reduced to sub-micron size particles that cannot cause corrosion and are safely burned during normal combustion.
Stabilizing Fuel Chemistry
Diesel fuel and gasoline are not formulated to be stored for more than 90 days. After this period of time, they begin to oxidize, forming sludge, varnish, gum and other harmful deposits. The ability of the fuel to burn properly is diminished as chemical components start to break down. Startron[R] uses its enzyme technology to maintain fuel quality and prevent the deterioration of fuel components. Diesel fuel treated with Startron[R] has a shelf life in excess of two years. Gasoline, which tends to evaporate volatile components more quickly than diesel, remains stable for one year.
Once hydrocarbon fuels deteriorate, the process of cleaning and rejuvenating them is extremely expensive. Enzymes contained in Startron[R] can in fact "repair" old fuel, restoring cetane and octane ratings, dispersing water and breaking down sludge and other deposits. Startron[R]'s enzyme formula may well be the most cost effective fuel remediation technology in the world."
08-03-2006, 10:06 AM
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Follow to my prio post - The Pano article appears in the Tech Q&A section of the July 2006 issue. I'm still looking for the Excellance article. Both are very good reading.
