Could someone Please review my Suspension write up.....
04-10-2006, 09:26 AM
#17
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Originally Posted by warmfuzzies
Slotting the damper brakeline bracket is a bit heath robinson IMHO, but thanks for the feedback Bob. I didn't buy new lines I made them, cost £1/ft for the copper/nickel line and about £10 for the pipe flaring kit. That linked writeup though is pretty comprehensive.
04-11-2006, 05:18 AM
#18
Burning Brakes
Looks great Kevin, i'll use it as a guide when i do mine this year.
Just one crit - i'd have preferred it if it was all on one page - so i could print it out easily to take to the garage.
After changing the suspension on my beater car this week, and struggling (as usual) with nuts that won't budge - i've bought a cordless impact wrench. They are THE most amazing tools
Just one crit - i'd have preferred it if it was all on one page - so i could print it out easily to take to the garage.
After changing the suspension on my beater car this week, and struggling (as usual) with nuts that won't budge - i've bought a cordless impact wrench. They are THE most amazing tools
04-11-2006, 09:42 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by viperbob
I am not sure exactly what heath robinson is. In general working on these cars I try to think KISS ( Keep It Simple Stupid ). When working on one major car system (like the suspension), I find it best to avoid any other major system (like the brakes). Every time you touch one of these other systems, there is a greater chance of breakage, failure, and time loss. Be it fasteners, lines, electrical connections, whatever. The less you have to touch in order to accomplish your goals the greater chance of success and the shorter time to complete. Just a philosophical approach, but one that is certainly applicable to our cars.
In follow-up to what ViperBob is describing, I can tell you that it makes the installation MUCH easier. I am the author of the DIY that ViperBob linked to above (also linked in my signature).
Joel Reiser, from the PCA website, advocates the same. In fact, someone recently emailed him about that very step in my DIY and this is Joel's response (do a search on the 993 board for Joel's background--by the way, he fields all of the questions on the PCA website for 964/993/996/C2/C4/GT3):
Classification: Suspension
Subject: 1997 993 ROW M030 Shock Installation
Model: 993
Year: 1997
Total Mileage: 37500
Car Use: Street use only
Question:
Joel - The following is from the p-car website. My concern is - will cutting a slot in the brake line holder of the shock risk a safety or operating issue?
Tks, Ken
PREPARING/INSTALLING NEW SHOCK/SPRING ASSEMBLY:
(F23.) Cut a slot into the brake line holder of the Bilstein HD shock to permit the existing brake line to be slid therein. The width of this slot can be about or slightly less than the diameter of the hole in the brak e line holder. The first picture shows the brake line and the narrowed diameter portion that gets clipped and held.
Answer:
Porsche Motorsports was doing this when they were Andial 10-15 years ago with all the Cup cars that came through their shop, and a number of us have been doing it ever since.
This is a good mod, I do this all the time, and have never seen or heard of a problem doing so. Just see to it that the brake line is then clipped in place, or at least tie-wrapped with a heavy duty tie wrap like the T&B in the large thickness & width with the metal tongue.
Joel Reiser - PCA WebSite - 4/10/2006
Subject: 1997 993 ROW M030 Shock Installation
Model: 993
Year: 1997
Total Mileage: 37500
Car Use: Street use only
Question:
Joel - The following is from the p-car website. My concern is - will cutting a slot in the brake line holder of the shock risk a safety or operating issue?
Tks, Ken
PREPARING/INSTALLING NEW SHOCK/SPRING ASSEMBLY:
(F23.) Cut a slot into the brake line holder of the Bilstein HD shock to permit the existing brake line to be slid therein. The width of this slot can be about or slightly less than the diameter of the hole in the brak e line holder. The first picture shows the brake line and the narrowed diameter portion that gets clipped and held.
Answer:
Porsche Motorsports was doing this when they were Andial 10-15 years ago with all the Cup cars that came through their shop, and a number of us have been doing it ever since.
This is a good mod, I do this all the time, and have never seen or heard of a problem doing so. Just see to it that the brake line is then clipped in place, or at least tie-wrapped with a heavy duty tie wrap like the T&B in the large thickness & width with the metal tongue.
Joel Reiser - PCA WebSite - 4/10/2006
04-11-2006, 10:21 AM
#20
Drifting
Thread Starter
Jeff,
Thanks for the DIY it's very thorough. With parts like these though I stand by my comments, I would say that to me it's the most secure method, therefore I chose that route.
I fully understand why it's easier, and why people advocate this method, it just isn't for me, my background is complex engineering engine builds, and if I were to go this route when I was building those engines, I'd have been crucified for that work.
Thats how I was apprenticed, and though times have moved on, I chose to stick by what has served me best thus far.
I appreciate your comments, and as I said earlier you DIY is very thorough, however I prefer my method of brake line fitment.
Regards
kevin.
Thanks for the DIY it's very thorough. With parts like these though I stand by my comments, I would say that to me it's the most secure method, therefore I chose that route.
I fully understand why it's easier, and why people advocate this method, it just isn't for me, my background is complex engineering engine builds, and if I were to go this route when I was building those engines, I'd have been crucified for that work.
Thats how I was apprenticed, and though times have moved on, I chose to stick by what has served me best thus far.
I appreciate your comments, and as I said earlier you DIY is very thorough, however I prefer my method of brake line fitment.
Regards
kevin.
04-11-2006, 11:40 AM
#21
Racer
Very nice write up Kevin. Like the website. All the snags you list are very common so anyone reading should take note of them. The brake line bracket is a personal thing. My new KW's came with the slot the standard RS's Bilsteins don't have the slot. Each to his own. Were the brake lines you made up coated like the originals?
04-11-2006, 12:16 PM
#22
Drifting
Thread Starter
Hi Larence,
Thanks for the compliments, the brake lines are standard copper nickel, not plated in any way, they are slightly tougher than copper, and in surface colour more silver in appearance.
I have used the tubing before on my old Audi, and it has stood the test of time well, it's pretty standard stuff, and as I hadn't any problems before, I went straight back to the motor factors and bought a few feet more.
kevin
Thanks for the compliments, the brake lines are standard copper nickel, not plated in any way, they are slightly tougher than copper, and in surface colour more silver in appearance.
I have used the tubing before on my old Audi, and it has stood the test of time well, it's pretty standard stuff, and as I hadn't any problems before, I went straight back to the motor factors and bought a few feet more.
kevin
04-11-2006, 01:38 PM
#23
Drifting
Thread Starter
Grag,
I have posted a pdf write up on the first suspension page, let me know if it works ok.
As a side note, if anyone else wants this done to any of their work just drop me a PM, and then wait for a while........
Kevin.
I have posted a pdf write up on the first suspension page, let me know if it works ok.
As a side note, if anyone else wants this done to any of their work just drop me a PM, and then wait for a while........
Kevin.
04-11-2006, 06:32 PM
#24
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After having just done this exact same thing this past weekend ... looks good to me.
The rear top perch on the drivers side is a bitch to get the back nut off ... especially if you have ham hands.
The hex bolts that hold the lower part of the front shock assemblies ... we had to use a small breaker tube on the hex key to loosen them.
All bolts that were reused were given a generous coat of "nevercease" ... just in case.
We did cut the brake line bracket(s) with a dremel tool ... very small notch ... enough to slide the brake line thru, and still leave plenty of braket for the spring clip to properly do its job. My take ... the original design was wrong ... they should have designed the notch into the bracket. The task at hand is to fix/change the suspension, and not have to get involved with the brakes too.
The rear top perch on the drivers side is a bitch to get the back nut off ... especially if you have ham hands.
The hex bolts that hold the lower part of the front shock assemblies ... we had to use a small breaker tube on the hex key to loosen them.
All bolts that were reused were given a generous coat of "nevercease" ... just in case.
We did cut the brake line bracket(s) with a dremel tool ... very small notch ... enough to slide the brake line thru, and still leave plenty of braket for the spring clip to properly do its job. My take ... the original design was wrong ... they should have designed the notch into the bracket. The task at hand is to fix/change the suspension, and not have to get involved with the brakes too.
04-11-2006, 06:56 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
One trick I would add is rather than clamping the brake lines to prevent loss of brake fluid, I use a broom handle rod propped against the seat to depress the brake pedal about an inch.
This maneuver covers the inlet port from the fluid reservoir to the master cylinder and essentially stops brake fluid loss at all 4 wheels.
This maneuver covers the inlet port from the fluid reservoir to the master cylinder and essentially stops brake fluid loss at all 4 wheels.
04-12-2006, 06:26 AM
#26
Drifting
Thread Starter
SLappy, by nervercease I take you mean something like copper grease, I tend to use PBC poly butyl cuprasil...IIRC. I'll add that too, silly omission on my part.
Interesting Point Cupcar, I'll add that as another method..
Thanks.
Kevin.
Interesting Point Cupcar, I'll add that as another method..
Thanks.
Kevin.
04-12-2006, 10:30 AM
#27
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Cupcar - That is a very common approach used by a number of folks. In my shop I had a 30 year Porsche tech at my shop that felt it was a religious thing to never touch the brake line bracket and used a plunger to set the brake pedal. Then when you open the lines, there is pressure in there and fluid comes out. So at the end, you still have to bleed the brake system. When I asked why he did it this way, it was that at the dealership, you never modify a part, just remove and replace. Then when I tried to get him to see that bleeding the brakes was no really a part of the suspension his answer was 'why not'? It is a way to get more labor and money from the customer and that was why we were in business. This just cemented in me the reason NOT to do it like the dealer.
04-12-2006, 07:54 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by warmfuzzies
SLappy, by nervercease I take you mean something like copper grease, I tend to use PBC poly butyl cuprasil...IIRC. I'll add that too, silly omission on my part.
Interesting Point Cupcar, I'll add that as another method..
Thanks.
Kevin.
Interesting Point Cupcar, I'll add that as another method..
Thanks.
Kevin.
04-13-2006, 12:16 PM
#29
Burning Brakes
Got the pdf Kevin, thanks again.
I'm really looking forward to getting the suspension done. i'm afraid i'll definitely be cutting the strut for the brake lines. Sorry Kevin
I've been thinking about buying one of those £30 camber tools - -the magnetic type that you put on the disk. Has anyone had any experience with them?
ps. Great write up too Jeff.
I'm really looking forward to getting the suspension done. i'm afraid i'll definitely be cutting the strut for the brake lines. Sorry Kevin
I've been thinking about buying one of those £30 camber tools - -the magnetic type that you put on the disk. Has anyone had any experience with them?
ps. Great write up too Jeff.
04-13-2006, 12:21 PM
#30
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The write-up looks great!
I just got my front H&Rinstalled yesterday (I was waiting for the TRG bar) and have to admit I did cut the brake bracket.....only because I am already thinking about putting JIC's on next wnter.
Marc
p.s. anybody wanna buy a used set of H&R's?
I just got my front H&Rinstalled yesterday (I was waiting for the TRG bar) and have to admit I did cut the brake bracket.....only because I am already thinking about putting JIC's on next wnter.
Marc
p.s. anybody wanna buy a used set of H&R's?