Red rooster

The most common reason for the spark to jump to a ground or another wire is an open circuit wire. PIA job but you could check the end to end resistance of each wire with a multimeter. An open cicuit wire will be obvious .

Good luck

Geoff

darth

Yeah

You want to coat the inside of the boot and connector- I use a Q-tip. Not only is it a dielectric, it's also a lubricant - hence the name dielectric grease. Mind you it will dry up over time. You can also check visually if you pierced the boots with the channel locks. If you see a scar bend the rubber and see how deep it is and if you do find some cuts this is where an arc can eminate from. If you don't want to spend money on new boots then maybe a little silicone can patch it up, but that is just a bandaid solution, Eventually the silicone might come off, moisture gets in and arcing starts again. You want to insulate the boots as much as possible cause the, what is it 12000 volts, is trying to find the easiest path to ground which in turn sets off the more sensitive electronics and you have the Christmas tree effect.

Hope this Helps
Bill
90C2

dfinnegan

Bill,

This does help. Thanks.

Another question, if I may, should this "condition" be present all of the time?

If so, why does the idiot light cluster not just light up right away?

Thanks,
Dave

darth

The arcing is kinda random - it happens when conditions are just right - maybe the coil puts out a few hundred volts because of certain variables and then there's 1 out of 12 chances of that happening on the wire which may have been pierced or damaged - I could go on and on with the laws of probabilities and electromagnetics. Bottom line I'm basing my suggestions on what you told me you did and the only thing I can see you did wrong is putting channel locks on the boots and the possibility they were damaged. Just recheck everything you did and take the time to visually look at things - I know from personal experience that this is what causes the Christmas tree effect and I know many others have experienced it. Prolongged arcing can cause carbon tracks which are liitle black lines made of carbon which creates an easy path to ground - they can be scrapped off but because they actually leave the rubber burnt and ruff - they reform quickly. That's why these boots are so smooth when new - to reduce this kinda thing.

Hope this helps
Bill
90C2

Indycam

"Anyone know about this use of a scope to test the wires?"
"Does anyone know what is required to diagnose bad wires/boots?"
Oscilloscopes.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...06877#continue

"If it is I don't expect the grease will flow well through the engine block. I hope this isn't an issue!"
A little grease is no big deal , when a motor is rebuilt lots of grease is used on lots of the parts .

dfinnegan

Indycam,

Thanks for the input. I'm glad to hear that I haven't made another mistake in greasing the lower bearing. I had come to feel okay with this after I found a reference in one of the distributor belt threads about a frozen bearing with arrows to "grease" each of the bearings including the lower one. Still, it's alwasy nice to get feedback. Cheers.

Also, while I'm here and not just banging on this thread again (!), I have another data point on the christmas tree lights.

I went out again (picking up dinner) and found that the Master Alarm light was lit all by itself. I know this is not supposed to happen. I have had the master alarm flash on and off for me once or twice before in hard turns. Tonight it seemed to flicker and go on and off with bumps and turns. Almost like it was a low fuel or low washer fluid light.

Is it possible that the washer fluid warning is tripping the master alarm light only just slightly before the washer fluid warning light itself? I'm pretty sure that I'm low on washer fluid. I've been holding off filling it until I lower it all the way to full warning just to be sure everything is working.

Or, is this just another symptom of the christmas tree effect that I'm seeing?

Good questions, I suppose. As always, any thoughts are appreciated.

Sorry for being so long winded!

Cheers,
Dave

dfinnegan

Indycam,

That was a very interesting article you've referenced . . . thanks!

After trying the dielectric I'll start asking around for shops that can do some testing for me.

Cheers,
Dave

dfinnegan

Update

Last night I removed all of the plug wires from the distributor caps, inspected them closely, applied dielectric grease to the interior of the boot (the metal connector part deep inside) and to the pins on the top of the caps. I then reassembled everything ensuring that each boot went on straight and tight.

I went for a ride a short while ago and got no lights! I went about 15 or 20 miles in the rain. Rain should make the problem worse. Shouldn't it?

I did get just a flicker of the Master Warning light (the '!') toward the end, but then it went out. Interestingly, this has been a recurrent problem with my car.

2001.08.07 26,928 mi
dealer was asked to check master warning light
no problem was found

2001.11.27 28,543 mi
independent shop was asked to check the master warning light
check warning light; occasionaly flickers; dealer could not fix
checked central warning system
removed gages
checked wiring connections
tie off loose harness

2004.01.04 33,499 mi
same independent was asked to check the master warning light
check for central warning light
check all systems
no problem found
check alt output
all check ok

Since I've had the car (2005.07) I have seen the master warning light flash on two occasions. Both were when cornering hard. I saw no other lights.

Since then, I have seen the low washer fluid light come on a few times. I have been trying to remember to drain some fluid out, but have had better things to do.

Today the low washer fluid light came on when I started the car and let it sit on an incline while I shut the garage doors. I figured it was finally down to the true alarm level. Interestingly, there was no master alarm associated with this warning light.

Later, after a stop, neither light came on after restarting the car.

I have a suspicion that the washer fluid level light is some how connected to the master warning light flickering. However, I can't make sense of it. It just doesn't seem to follow. Seems like the washer light should come on first and that should trigger the master; if at all.

Does the master light trigger for low washer?

Any way, I'm pleased that I've had one successful ride without the christmas tree effect. We'll see if it holds up on the coming days and weeks.

Once again, thanks for all the input. The folks here are very kind to lend their time and expertise to those in need.

Cheers,
Dave

dfinnegan

Oh, and I failed to mention that my close inspection of the plug wire boots did not reveal any damage. No cracks, tears or scuffs. I found a few "finger prints" left behind by the channel locks, but no discernable damage.

I've also considered that I may have pulled on the right angle bend of the boot a bit too hard on a couple of wires. The boots are right angled. The wire enters from the side very near the top. This "handle" ends up being a bit too tempting when trying to remove a stuck boot. I tried NOT to pull on this handle, but I'm sure I applied "some" pressure on a couple of the boots.

I'd love to know how the connection between the wire and the boot works internally so that I might have a better idea what type of damage may exist. I didn't have the courage to try and remove a boot from the wire. I don't want to break a wire without a replacement handy.

Cheers,
Dave

darth

I'm not sure if the windshield washer fluid level triggers the master warning but you can probably check this by unscrewing the top and I believe there's a float in there which if you push it down to simulate low fluid level it should set the low fluid level light and you can see if the master is also triggered. I know the parking brake will set it off. I've seen other wire connectors which have a screw which goes into the inner core of carbon/graphite material and makes the electrical/mechanical connection - I suspect these are the same.

Hope this helps - keep our fingers crossed
Bill
90C2

JasonAndreas

The connector is crimped onto the wire, nothing special. On the boot side there is a builtin resistor. To separate just twist three or four times and pull. Although if everything is now working okay I wouldn't touch it.

dfinnegan

Jason,

Thanks. A picture's worth a thousand words!

Bill,

Thanks for the kind thoughts.

Also, I've found a reference in the Owner's Manual (of all places) to the three priority groups for warnings:

Priority I

Malfunctions that are monitored and detected by the system, and will impair driving saftey, are indicated by the warning light, central warning light and warning buzzer.

The central warning light and the warning buzzer can be cancelled.

Warning functions:

- Brake pressure
- ABS (Antilock bake system)
- Interlock warning


Priority II

Malfunctions that are monitored and detected by the system, and might impair driving safety, are indicated by the warning light and central warning light.

The central warning light can be cancelled.

Warning functions:

- Brake fluid level
- Parking Brake
- Fan belt
- Oil pressure
- Low fuel
- Spoiler
- Convertible
- Air Bag/Seat belt warning light


Priority III

Malfunctions that are monitored and deteced by the system and require, for example, repacing a part or adding washer fluid, are indicated by the warning light.

Warning functions:

- Brake pad wear
- Washer fluid level


Well, so much for my washer level theory!

So, the central warning light is not supposed to light by itself. I have checked that each and every warning light lights up at startup, so it's not a warning that is triggering without a bulb.

The mystery continues . . .

Cheers,
Dave

garrett376

Dave, I read through your tests... did you ever spray/mist water on the spark plug wires while the car was running at night? This is usually the best way to see if sparks are "escaping." And be sure to check the coil high tension wires, too, and don't forget the lower plug wires also.

Regarding your warning light - unplug your spoiler control unit to rule that out - that will trip the Master "!" light, and extinguish it too if it comes back online.

dfinnegan

garrett376,

I did spray water, but only from the open engine lid. I figured I had touched the wires near the distributor so that was the most likely source. I also sprayed water onto the coil wires. I saw no sparks.

As for the spoiler control unit, I'm not quite sure that I follow. The spoiler seems to work fine. The warning light comes on at start up and goes out as I get rolling. I don't see the warning light come one when the master alarm light comes on alone.

Are you saying that the spoiler controler may be alarming the master without alarming the spoiler warning light? That would be interesting.

Is it as simple as pulling the plug back on the rear lid? Will that cause a warning in its own right?

Thanks,
Dave

garrett376

Hi Dave - you are right the spoiler light will come on with the Master light if it's working - I should have read your description above as to which lights came on when the "Christmas tree" effect occurred. Answer to your question - no, if your spoiler light works correctly (on at start, off when rolling) then you're OK. I was just pointing out that the spoiler control unit can cause the master light to go on and off - it's a "self cancelling" warning similar to your parking brake (meaning you don't have to hit the "!"-cancel button to get the warning to go away.

If I was in your shoes, I'd be looking into finding a buddy to swap ignition wires - starting with the coil wires (only two of them and easily accessible) - or even buy a non-OEM set from your autoparts store and start swapping wires. All too often the ignition wires are a source for this effect.

Keep us posted!