Mark C-2 Targa

Once again I need the wisdom of the 964 site. I want to go to a PCA autocross but I have to have my own helmet. SA95 or better, what ever that is? I see the ads in excellence and panorama but it would really be nice to try one on before I buy it on line. Is there any stores to go to? Being a beginner I don’t need the top of the line but I don’t want trash either. What do you suggest? Thanks Mark 90 C2 Targa.

Bill Gregory

Mark,

The SA95 is a safety rating by the Snell foundation, and while you might still find an SA95 helmet for sale, the current standard is SA2000. If you can get a good price on an SA95, that's OK, as it should remain valid for most venues for a few more years.

In addition to the SA standard for auto racing, there is the M standard is for motorcycles. The difference between the two standards are that SA-rated helmets undergo a flammability test, have a narrower field of vision than M-rated helmets, and have a rollbar impact test. New helmets bought before roughly October 2000 will have the Snell SA-95 rating, and after that they are Snell SA2000.

There are several manufacturers of helmets, with some of the major ones being Bell, Simpson, Arai, and Shoei, and each have several lines of helmets. One of the considerations is whether you want an open face or full face helmet. The full face helmet has coverage around your mouth/jaw area, and is recommended over an open face helmet due to it's added protection. (you won't see any open faced helmets in professional formula racing). If you wear glasses, take a look at the Bell M2, as it has a larger eyeport, making glasses on/off easier. You have a choice of materials in fiberglass (less expensive) or kevlar (more expensive, lighter), which both meet the same safety standards. You're right to look to try on helmets, as opposed to mail order, even if you have to drive a couple of hours, as they all fit differently. I tried three brands of helmets when I bought mine: one was uncomfortable, one I got on and nearly didn't get off, and one fit just right. And the seller can help ensure that, comfort aside, the helmet fits correctly. Expect to pay $250 - $350 for a fiberglass helmet. Also, buy new, not used, unless you positively know that the helmet was never dropped/smacked or involved in an accident.

With helmet in hand, you should also buy a helmet support, which runs $25-$60. These are typically foam covered in nomex material, and sit on your shoulder under the helmet. The helmet support limits how far your head-with-helmet can move in the event of an accident (called hyperextension), and provides some support while you're driving.

JBH

Bill posted an excellent description of helmet options and choices.

For the novice, the expense of a new helmet for their first autocross or driver's ed event can be a barrier to participation; especially if they are not sure this is something they want to do more than once or twice.

Mark: I am a little surprised there would be a SA 95 requirement for an autocross. That seems a bit extreme considering high speeds are rare on an autocross course. Your original post also suggests it must be your own helmet. If all of that is accurate, then you have little choice but to buy one.

Call the registrar - check on this information, explain this is your first event and maybe he/she can give you some suggestions or know where you can get a helmet for this event at little or no money.

JBH

I am 6'3" and my helmet does touch the roof just a bit, but I must sit fairly upright. At six foot, I don't see how you will have a problem if you lower the seat all the way.

The old Targas had just enough extra headroom that I fit very comfortably in them.

MelissaM

Mark,

If I were you, I'd check with your PCA region's autocross contact and find out the following:

1. Do they require an SA95 Helmet, or will an M95 (Snell's Motorcycle rating) helmet suffice for an autocross.

2. Do they have any loaner helmets available.

As far as buying a helmet goes, try on the different brands. Leave the helmet on for 5 minutes or more. It's amazing how the helmet seems to fit fine, but after a few minutes you start developing a pretty good headache.

Different brands fit differently. For example, I tried on a Shoei, but I got a nasty headache that started in my forehead if I left the helmet on for more than 5 minutes. The Arai helmets fit my head better.

If you can use a motorcyle helmet in your events, it's a good idea to spend some time in a motorcyle shop trying on the different brands of helmets before you buy.

I think different brands also might provide different clearances if you're worried about headroom. Bring your car with you to the helmet store, and see if you can still sit in your car comfortably with the helmet on.

(Me, I never have to worry about this, as I'm only 5'1". Not only that, but I could drop the top in my cab and have all the headroom I want!)

Good luck!

-- Melissa

Bill Gregory

If you think you might ever want to do PCA drivers education, you probably don't want to buy a Snell M-rated motorcycle helmet. Most regions require an SA-rated helmet for the track.

As a related aside, I'm told that we did have one person show up at a drivers education event who was very miffed that their Snell-rated bicycle helmet wasn't satisfactory for track usage.

MelissaM

Now that's funny!

-- Melissa

PS It seems that some PCA regions allow you to use M rated helmets at DE's. OTOH, you'll probably never be turned away from a driving event if you buy an SA rated helmet. Check with your region. I looked at our region's website, and they specified Snell approval for helmets, but I didn't see a definite M vs. SA for autocrosses or DE's.

Tom Sharpes

OK, I guess I'm the one who's going to ask the tough questions.

Why do these regions require a SA rated helmet ???

I have looked into this in depth and the ONLY differences between an SA rated helmet and an M rated helmet is the SA has flame proof lining, and a specific roll bar impact test. (Actually the SA rated helmet has a SMALLER viewing area than the M rated helmet!)

This begs the question: Why are these SA rated helmets required when the drivers of cars in track events (not AX) ARE NOT required to wear fire retardant driving suits or required to have roll bars in their cars ??

Drew_K

My local PCA requires Snell 90 for DE events, which I assume means that 'M' or 'N' is acceptable.

Tom, I've wondered the same thing. In practical terms, I don't think the fire resistant lining really makes a difference when the rest of your clothes are flammable. I bet the PCA regions requiring SA rated helmets do so for legal reasons. It would look bad if they allowed motorcycle rated helmets for a car event in the event of an accident.

Coincidentally, I just purchased my first helmet- an opened face SA 2000 rated Simpson (LX-N) for $239. You can purchase the same helmet from www.helmetcity.com for $229 (free shipping), but I prefer to give my business to the local shop that sponsors the SCCA autocrosses.
www.racerwholesale.com has SA2000 rated open faced helmets for $150.

Bill Gregory

Tom,

I don't have definitive answers, but I'll take a [rambling] stab at your questions. One of the challenges with setting up rules for the track is how to strike an appropriate balance between the casual first time track student and the advanced run group driver; also considering the chances of certain types of accidents happening, along with potential for human and car damage.

In our PCA region, and others, while fire retardant clothing isn't required, all cotton is required, to minimize the effects of burning polyester content. Fire extinguishers are also required in all cars.

In terms of the helmet, inside a car is not far off from having a rollbar, if you start bouncing around in it, depending on what you hit.

As Drew mentions, insurance is a consideration. One of the requirements of our insurance is that all cars that go on the track are tech'd. Aside from making good sense, it also reduces potential liability, from an insurance viewpoint.

In the end, I'd guess the SA vs M issue may be as simple as SA is meant for automotive applications (per Snell definitions) and M is not.

On rollbars, again in our region, any cabriolet or Boxster must have a rollbar. Some regions recommend rollbars especially in the more advanced run groups.

And lastly (Drew's post just reminded me), for those considering a helmet, give strong consideration to a full face helmet with front part that goes in front of your jaw, as opposed to an open face helmet. God forbid you're in an accident, that extra piece helps protect what everyone else sees when they look at you. It doesn't typically cost any more, and, at least on the Bell M2, some helmets have slits there for speech / heat release.

:rambling mode off:

Bill Gregory

Jon,

When you say you have the seat all the way down...I know two people with fit problems between the waist and head, both with pre-964 911's. In one case he took the brackets that hold the seat in the air and mounted the seat to the floor (911SC with nothing under the drivers seat). In another case they cut about an inch out of the seat bracket, still leaving it about 1/2" off the floor, but with more headroom. Also, the seat you use can gain space. The Recaro SRD picked up a 1/2" to an 1" over stock, for example. So, for example, if the 964 has a computer under the drivers seat, is there any space to drop the seat mount or could you move the computer? You may have looked into that already....

Drew_K

$#% Bill! You got me thinking about the open vs full face helmet issue. I ended up going back to the store and picking up a full face Simpson SA 2000 helmet instead (the open face one was on order). I don't think I'll ever need the extra protection, but that's a pretty lame argument. Similar to "I don't think I'll ever need that airbag." I may eventually pick up an open face helmet soley for summertime autocrosses though.

Either way, I'm happy that I don't have to borrow someone else's sweaty helmet any more.

Tom Sharpes

Hi Bill,

I really don’t want to turn this into a debate, but this is where the MEMBERS need to question who makes these rules and why rules are being made for them regarding participation in these events.

The rules differ between regions. Why ? Is it so difficult to come up with a minimum set of standards for the PCA that are SENSIBLE. By this I mean the helmet rules should be standard so that you can participate in another regions event without worrying if the rules will exclude you. I have been to events in one region that require SA95 helmets (as minimum), fire extinguishers, the whole nine yards and 70 miles away the other region has vastly outdated M85 helmets for you to use.

<< One of the challenges with setting up rules for the track is how to strike an appropriate balance between the casual first time track student and the advanced run group driver; also considering the chances of certain types of accidents happening, along with potential for human and car damage.>>

The rules should be the same for all ! They are driving the same track regardless of their experience. But the rules should be sensible. Requiring an SA rated helmet for a guy wearing shorts and tank top (all cotton of course) in a coupe is overkill – at the expense (read $$) of the participants. If you are going to only do AX’s then why should you have to buy an SA helmet at twice the price of an M rated helmet?

If you decide to do POC or PCA time trial events, you are going to have to go “full race” anyway and get a fire suit, 5 point belts, fire extinguisher, roll bar and so on. But that is a monetary commitment you have taken on because that is something you have decided to do seriously. The AX’er or DE event participant is (for the large part) a casual Porsche owner that wants to learn to drive his car better, not be a full blown racer.

I have read the insurance waiver that PCA provides and I have never seen anything that addresses a requirement for specific clothing, helmets, rollbars or fire extinguishers.

<< In terms of the helmet, inside a car is not far off from having a rollbar, if you start bouncing around in it, depending on what you hit. >>

As a former motorcycle rider, I am hard pressed to see how a helmet that is certified to keep my melon intact in a fall off a motorcycle at – say 90 or 100mph is less safe than an SA helmet inside of a car – especially one without the rollbar.

<< In the end, I'd guess the SA vs M issue may be as simple as SA is meant for automotive applications (per Snell definitions) and M is not. >>

The only differences between the two ratings are: the fire resistance of the interior and chin strap, the additional “specific area” roll bar impact test ( which is the same impact test that is applied to the ENTIRE M helmet) and the view area on the SA helmet is significantly smaller than the M rated helmet. (That sounds detrimental to me) So, does this justify the requirement for AX’s or events that don’t require the other protective equipment ?

As I said, I do not want to turn this into a debate, nor am I questioning your input. I am saying the members need to let their leadership know their thoughts when it comes to these rules and make them appropriate to the “threat”, conditions, and requirements of the events they want to participate in.

Tank tops and shorts coupled with SA helmet requirements are contradictory. Common sense needs to prevail.

Just my .02 worth

Bill Gregory

Tom,

Even though I stepped on your landmine, maybe lost a few body parts ...I agree, no debate intended - You raise some good points. PCA National is, right now, looking at a common set of guidelines for the regions to use to be more in sync across the country.

A recent one we've dealt with is letting Boxsters run in drivers education. One of the questions we wrestled with was: is the stock roll bar satisfactory protection? Is the broomstick rule satisfactory for clearance, or is 2" below brookstick required for safety with street seat belts? Based on good experiences in other regions, we modified our rules to allow Boxsters to run. However, until we did, we and others had an inconsistency. I expect a national set of basic rules would be welcome in the regions.


I don't know if a PCA region allows tank tops and shorts that you referenced - around here it's normally long sleeve shirts and pants, cotton again. I agree what you cited is contradictory.

On the narrower field of vision on the SA helmets, I'm not sure I have a problem with that. I would expect the M helmets would have a wider field of vision, as motorcyclists have to deal with traffic coming at them from the sides. Typically on the track, you're focused on what's upcoming and using your mirrors for what's behind. I've never ridden a motorcycle, however, so maybe my thought process is faulty.

Anyhow, good discussion....