dryan

Hi again from Australia, thanks for your responses to my last query. This place is a gold mine of info.

I have an invoice from the seller of the 1990 model C4 that I am looking at [Chassis No. WPOZZZ96ZLS401039 engine No 62L01704].

I would be very grateful if any of you who know about these things could indicate if it looks as if the car is a 'good thing' or not. The overhaul invoice is dated February 2001. The odometer reading was then 115,732km. The details from the invoice are as follows:

"remove and replace engine and gearbox assembly. Dismantle engine completely and inspect all parts for wear ... Replace parts as required. Fefit piston and barrels, fitting new rings. Reassemble heads to cam boxes. Reassemble top part of engine. Remove side panels and tighten all connections to thermostat. Fit new hose clamp, clean and inspect for leaks. Remove and clean engine compartment and fit new sound deadner. Check for noise in drive line. Fit new LH front wheel bearing"

The seller says this was the first time this occurred in the life of the car. The following parts were installed:

"valve guides x12, engine gasket kit (96410090200), ring set carrera (99915900999), clutch plate (99920800999), engine compartment insulation (96455628101), bearing shell x2 (99310113500), bearing shell x2 - yep, mentioned twice(99310113700), housing pump seal (99911346340), gasket kit crankcase (93010090104), air guide (96410640301), engine enamel x2 (no part no.), chain adjuster lh (96410507900), wheel bearing (99905304102), 911 oil filter (OC54), FMX engine oil (FMX - quantity 11) hose clamp, Porsche sump plug washer x2 (SPW)"

and some repairs were sublet:
"weld fin on No.1 head, remove and refit hone 12 guides, strip and clean heads and valves, reface valves, seats and barrel surfaces. Wash and set valve tip heights, Spring tension and reassemble".

It all cost $AUD 6,124.48 which is about $12,000 in your money.

Can you tell from these clues what's been going on? Sorry it's so long but I thought you would need all the data to tell the significance of (a) what has been done and (b) what it indicates was wrong in the first place.

Would you buy it?

thanks so much

Dan Ryan
Brisbane, Australia

Michael 93 C2

Hi Dan,

Have you tried contacting the garage who did
this work to see if they can give you any more
information ?

Is there a split between parst and labour costs ?

Also, I think you exchange rate is not quite
right
AUS$6,124.48 = US$3,444.41

Regards,

Mike.

Bill Wagner

Dan:

The early 964 engines could leak at the cylinder/cylinder head interface. Not a real common problem but it can happen. The normal procedure is to replace the cylinders and pistons and install a set that use the gaskets. The part number you mention 964 100 902 00 is the gasket in question, so the implication is that this work was done. Unfortunately, I don't see any mention of the parts for the cylinders and pistons. It doesn't mean this wasn't done because it might have been one of the jobs done externally and they may not be reporting all the parts they used.

I would get the car checked out by having a PPI done (which I would do anyway, PARTICULARLY on a rebuilt engine). Possibly the shop doing the PPI could make better sense of the work done.

Here is a cut-n-paste of the TSB regarding this repair. It has been pasted in so please forgive any formatting errors and the missing pictures:

Cylinder Heads - Refacing Information
Group1

Number
9404

Model
6 Cyl.

Part Identifier1570

February 8, 1994

Subject:
Refacing Cylinder Heads with Use of Tool 9526

ATTENTION: Service Manager / Service Technician

This bulletin replaces Technical Bulletin Group 1, Number 9202, Book I, pages 13-16.

Models Affected:
911 Carrera 214 Model Years '89 (K), '90 (L) and '91 (M) up to engine number:
62 M06836, M64.01 - Manual Transmission
62 M52757, M64.02 - Tiptronic

Concern:
Oil leakage between cylinder and cylinder head. Oil "leakage" in the case of 911 Carrera 2/4 engines means oil leaking (drops forming) from
the cylinder to cylinder head mating area, resulting in oil wetness on the lower area of the cylinder head or on the exhaust heat exchangers.
Due to higher operational temperatures of the Carrera 2/4 engines, some blackening (carbonizing) of oil at the lower sealing area is possible.
If there is only a small discolored area on the bottom of the cylinder head without wetness, this can be considered normal and no repairs are
necessary.

General Information:
When repairing oil leaks from the cylinder to cylinder head sealing area on engines prior to the above engine numbers, all cylinders and
pistons should be replaced and all cylinder head sealing surfaces refaced. Cylinder head nuts are reusable.

IMPORTANT: Replacement piston and cylinder sets have a groove to accommodate a seal between the cylinder head and cylinder mating surface (Figure 1). Effective immediately, only the steel sealing ring, Part Number 964 104 115 20 is to be used during repairs. This information also applies to engines produced after the above mentioned engine numbers.

When installing the cylinder head to the cylinder, the steel sealing ring must be fully installed in the groove of the cylinder. Sparingly use light grease to hold the ring in the cylinder during installation.

The above subject repair will require PRIOR District Service Manager authorization until further notice (this includes dealers on the self-authorization program). All subsequent repairs needing to be done, in addition to the cylinder head re-machining, piston and cylinder
replacement, exceeding $100 will also require a PRIOR District Service Manager authorization.

The cylinder heads must be refaced to accommodate the dimension of the new cylinders. Refacing can be done without cylinder head
disassembly. Refacing of the sealing surface requires a lathe and use of special tool 9526. Tool 9526 can be rented free of charge from
Porsche Cars N.A. Technical Support Department at phone number (702) 348-3253 or (702) 348-3254.

If no reputable machine shop is available to the dealer, cylinder heads may be sent for resurfacing to:

Porsche Cars North America, Inc.
Technical Service Center
4775 Air Center Circle
Reno, NV 89502

When sending cylinder heads to the above address, be certain to provide proper shipping protection. Packing cylinder heads correctly will
reduce the risk of heads being damaged in shipment. Do not send cylinder heads with cam housing and gears, only send complete
cylinder heads. Also, enclose a clear copy of the work order with the heads.

We suggest packing the cylinder head three to a package and send two packages total. Also, install short lengths of rubber hose over the
exposed studs of the cylinder heads. This will prevent damage caused by the studs touching the other heads in the package.

Parts Information:
When ordering parts (piston/cylinder and gaskets) use part numbers for engines from '91 (91-) or from engine numbers:

M62 M 06837, M64.01 - Manual Transmission
M62 M 52758, M64.02 - Tiptronic

Piston and cylinder sets are sold individually due to different height and weight groups. A quantity of six per engine is required. Different
cylinder height groups can be used in one engine as long as the same height group is used per cylinder bank.

Any one of the four different piston/cylinder set part numbers can be ordered:

964 103 915 22 - piston/cylinder set
964 103 915 23 - piston/cylinder set
964 103 915 24 - piston/cylinder set
964 103 915 25 - piston/cylinder set

Any of the above part numbers can be used; check parts availability of each number before ordering. The following parts are also required:

964 100 902 00 - gasket set (qty 1)

Due to the fact that some old inventory of head set 964 100 902 00 may contain the old version head gasket Part Number 964 104 115 00
(composition), make sure to use only new version head gasket Part Number 964 104 115 20 (steel).

Repair Information:
Refacing Cylinder Heads with Use of Special Tool 9526

1. Clean cylinder heads (do not sandblast assembled cylinder heads).

2. Install special tool 9526 on the short 8 mm cylinder head studs. Tool cut-out faces intake valve (Figure 2).

Before installation into the lathe, be certain special tool 9526 is not damaged or bent (ie. shipping damage, dropping, nicks, etc.).

3.Mount special tool 9526 with assembled cylinder head in lathe.

4.Check lateral and radial cylinder head run-out with dial gauge (Figure 3). If necessary, lateral run-out must be adjusted on lathe.Radial run-out can be adjusted by loosening the mounting nuts and repositioning the cylinder head on special tool 9526 as required.

5. Machine 0.10 +/- .02 mm from inner surface (arrow 2 in Figure 4). The diameter of the machined surface must be 145 mm (Figure 4). A surface quality standard of 32 micro-inches must be maintained. Machining should be done with a cutting tool at right angle to the work. The cylinder head surface may only be machined a maximum of 0.20 mm.

When machining is complete, the mating surface of the cylinder head to cylinder must be 145 mm in diameter.

6. Mark cylinder head with -10 or -20 appropriately on intake flange (arrow in Figure 4).

For additional information on refacing cylinder heads, refer to 911 Carrera 2/4 Workshop Manual, Volume 1, page 15-10e.

Warranty Claim Information:
Damage Code: 1570500002

Hope this helps,

Bill Wagner

dryan

Mike - thanks. You are dead right about the exchange rate - must be getting tired.

No, I haven't yet spoken to the shop who did the work. I will, but I figured they will say that they did all the right things.

I wondered if those reading this thought they had, and that they had used the right parts.

Dan

dryan

Great stuff Bill. Thanks. I have already used the TSB in an exchange with a Porsche dealer who was giving me the patronising "She'll be alright mate".

I'll be grateful if you can take me one step further. If the work I have detailed above did not include the replacement of the cylinders and pistons, will there be a problem?

Dan

Bill Wagner

Dan:

The only person who could answer the question about whether the rebuild will be all right or not is someone familiar with doing this, and possibly some of the shortcuts that can or can't be made. I am not such a person.

If the US cost that Mike reported to you is accurate, my guess would be that the cylinders and pistons were not included considering all the other work that was done, but who knows, maybe the parts in Australia are cheaper than they are here. Some mechanics in this area can circumvent the official Porsche fix by re-machining the heads, but this work usually doesn't involve putting the cylinder to cylinder head gaskets in. Supposedly it works quite well and it's considerably less that the full official Porsche repair (usually about $2500-$3000 US). In my area, the "official" Porsche fix will usually run anywhere from about $4500 (at independents with low labor rates) up to $12000 for what amounts to a total overhaul of EVERYTHING in the engine being done by an authorized Porsche dealership.

You may want to search the archives. This topic has been brought up before.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

jonfkaminsky

Dan-

here are the missing figures from the TSB Bill posted.

Figure 1

Figure 2

Figure 3

Figure 4

Figure 5 (not cited)


hope this helps (the figures come this way in the TSB, sorry)
Jon

dryan

Bill: Wow - I have just checked the archives as you suggested. What a lot of info. And I see the angst of some members at the mention of these alleged problems. I promise to go lightly on it in the future; maybe it's just that I am a potential buyer, looking to screw the seller with terrifying stories.
But, in thanks for the help I have found here, let me put on the record that my first ride in a Porsche was in a 964 when I had no idea what it was. I could not believe the enthusiasm with which it leapt forward with each upshift. Never experienced anything like it before. Then tootled around in a 1989 3.2 cabriolet and had to enquire if it had an engine problem! Had a 1988 3.2 targa at home for a day and took all the neighbours for a drive and they kindly said it went like the wind, but I knew it didn't. Tried to recreate the 964 experience in a 993 with a Porsche dealer salesman on board - it went fast, but something was missing; I didn't emerge sweating and shaking as I did from the first ride in the 964. I persuaded him to give me a run in a Boxster and the less said about that the better.
Then a mature aged woman (about my vintage! - lovely lady) advertised a 1989 964 targa, a C2 tiptronic. People say the tip lacks some of the thrust of the manual, and I guess they are right; but even so this was like a return to motoring heaven. Even in tip the thrust I remembered was back! And it was nicely raw compared to the 993. I only slowed down when I noticed the nice lady's white knuckles on the door handle. I should have bought it. Let it go. Didn't like the colour. Stupid, I know.
I have no doubt the 964 is vastly underrated. It is truly the last of the breed. You must all keep very quiet about this while I am searching.
regards
Dan

dryan

Jon - many thanks for those figures from the TSB.
regards
Dan

Bill Wagner

Dan:

I bought my C4 knowing full well what the potential problems with it could be. I bought one with the cylinder head update installed at the factory so my odds of getting the cylinder head leak should be much lower. The dual mass flywheel? Well, like I said I knew the potential problems and went ahead with it anyway. If it goes, I'll fix it.

I, too, could not really "con" myself into really liking the 3.2L cars. They're nice cars, but they just lack the power of a 964. Although the leaks and the flywheel are problems, they don't occur to all cars. In the case of the cylinder head leak, it's a "small percentage" as Bruce Anderson states, but if you're one of the members of that "small percentage" I guess you might tend to be more than a little angry!

Good Luck, get everything checked out, and if this isn't the car for you, wait until the right one comes along. I waited about two years to find mine and I'm very happy with it.