danny951

I sold my first Porsche a few months ago ('86 944 turbo) and have missed it very much, but needed the money at the time to buy a house. Now that I'll be needing a car soon in a few months, I plan to purchase another Porsche. I've been planning on either a 968 coupe or very good condition 944 turbo again, but just realized how reasonably affordable the 964 is! I saw the one on the rennlist ads (the 89 C4 red/blk for $19,800) and was amazed. I figured a car like that would be in the $30's.

My budget is around $20k so I figure I'll be looking at an 89, but wanted to see if it's worth paying more for a 90 and getting a C2. I love the idea of AWD and my current daily drive is also AWD although it's an SUV, but I love having the AWD there when it's wet or whatever.

My only other Porsche being a 944 turbo, I am used to the speed, but wonder how much different the handling is on a C2. I've heard many semi-horror stories of people losing the back end on them. I understand there is greater potential for a C2 on a track for the experienced driver, but I had originally thought a C4 would be able to handle the turns better, therefore would be able to get ahead.

Also, I've heard about the different fly-wheel used on the 90 up, but I don't know what that's all about. Really, I'm looking for some experienced advise about this and wanted to look early (can't purchase until August). I've received some excellent advise on the 951 board in the past (Danno, Luke, Konstantin) and hope to find the same generous people here on the 964 board as well.

Thanks for reading my winded post.. I look forward to being a 964 owner and Porsche owner once again!

Adrian

Dear Danny,
This is not a brush off but this question has been asked so many times that the data overflows in the archives. However as the owner of a 89 C4 which is the lightest and the quickest of the C4s I would naturally recommend the 89 C4.
Trying to compare a C2 to C4 is a chalk and cheese discussion. From your post you would prefer a C4. You can track the C4. Pull the plug on the traction control and ABS control unit and it will track a little faster. You did not hear that from me of course.
The 89 C4 is fitted with a single mass flywheel which weighs around 19 lbs. The 90s and up have a double mass flywheel and this weighs around 30 lbs and reliability is an issue.
The 964 forum is the best off them all. I genuinely believe it is the most international as well.
However when it comes to choosing the choice is yours. It is what you feel most comfortable in. Drive them both and I assure you that you will find the right one. Like most Porsche people you will feel it when it is right.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

Pietro

Dear Danny,
there have been innumerable comparisons between C4 and C2's. In my experience I agree with Adrian that a C4 is quicker on a track, however I have more fun driving a C2 on a track as it has more oversteer.
so: test drive them both and don't rush buying one until you know the animal!
enjoy!
Pietro

914und993

If you don't plan on driving at the track a lot, the C4 is hard to beat as a street car with its excellent traction under difficult conditions.

Having said that, its steering is a bit heavier than the C2, and that front differential is one more potential problem area - mine tended to leak a bit despite seal changes.

If you want to track it, I would recommend a C2. A brake fluid flush is much easier than on the C4. Your tire options are wider since you don't need to keep front and rear rolling diameters within such close parameters. And the C2 doesn't have as much understeer in low speed, high G cornering and is easier to throttle steer as Pietro alludes.

YMMV.
Chip

Riccardo

Danny, although the 964s might seem cheap to buy, be aware that they will also be more expensive to maintain. I would hazard guessing that they are harder to DIY on too.

Do some archive seaech and when you have seen the car then ask some specific questions. Hope you find a nice 964, they're great cars!

RSAErick

The oversteering reputation of the 911 ended with the 964. In fact, significant (in my opinion) understeer characteristics were introduced.

1AS

It's hard to make a 964 C4 oversteer except in snow, but EASY in a C2 even in dry conditions. Fear of oversteer should not impact your decision, since the C2 is easy to control- you just have to get used to reapplying the throttle. Having had both (and now a ttX50), if you drive in snow, get the C4, otherwise the C2. Of the two, I got more use and enjoyment out of the C4. AS

danny951

Thank you for the replies.. I know all this has been asked so much.. I kind of also just wanted to say hey to the 964 crowd.

I understand the greater maintnance cost of the 911 vs a 944/968, but this is something I'll be planning on. One thing that does somewhat concern me is how often and how minute of maintnace requires "dropping the motor" and just how much that automatically makes the bill with having a shop do it (not dealer). Any of you in DFW area are probably familiar with Mayos and Istook's.. I've taken my 951 to Don many times and feel he is very fair. He'll be doing any PPI for me. I'm just hoping the response is not "anything over an oil change requires dropping the motor"... :/

Also, one more thing, I looked through the PCA schedule (is it alright to discuss PCA things on Rennlist btw?) and wanted to get ahold of some Maverick PCA members that may be going to the DE's coming up.. I'd really like to come and just soak in some of what goes on setting up the cars and all.. I'd really love to be able to track the car a few times a year to really see what it's capable of and what I'm capable of!

Thanks for welcoming me in albeit a bit premature until I actually make the purchase.. just trying to get some foreknowledge of what I'm getting in to.

Adrian

Dear Danny,
There is no "maintenance" which requires the dropping of the engine. There are repairs which require engine and transmission drop. Ever tried changing the clutch assy on a 944. I reckon the 964 is easier. Seeing I have a 944 as well (I gave it to my eldest daughter) I have some experience with the 944.
The 964 is less maintenance than a 951 by the way. No cambelts, water pumps etc etc.
A good shop should be able to drop the engine and transmission in 30 minutes and shove it back just as quick. I have seen one person do it alone in 20 minutes.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4

shaker71

Dan,

You've got to get a 964. The gas pedal steering system is much more fun! Besides these things are built like tanks and well engineered for the DIY guy. Step up to the plate.

Good Luck,

Bill

Sailswish

Love the airbags, rear seat shoulder belts for the kids, undated-looking steering wheel and moveable tail.

Bill Gregory

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><strong>wanted to get ahold of some Maverick PCA members that may be going to the DE's coming up</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Go to <a href="http://www.pca.org," target="_blank">www.pca.org,</a> click on regions on the right side, pick Maverick, and look for drivers education contacts. If nothing else, the event registrar can put you in touch with people who will be attending. Or you can just go to an event - you'll find people like to talk about their cars and track experience.

Bill Gregory

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><strong> Your tire options are wider since you don't need to keep front and rear rolling diameters within such close parameters. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">My C2 owners manual says the rolling diameters need to be, as I recall, within 6% of each other, or the ABS gets upset.

When it comes to tires, there seem to be a finite number of more popular combinations on 964's, some of which are 205/225, 205/255, and 225/255. On the track, you see some additional combinations like 225/275. You can see some of the recent discussion on wheels in other threads, however, recognize that fitting some tire sizes can be very dependant on the wheels offset, in addition to the real size of tire itself (one manufacturers 255 is almost as wide as anothers 275). I know one person that uses a 285 as his rear tire, but his wheel offset is spot on, his right oil line is further flattened, and some rear wheel well sheet metal is hammered in a bit so there's no interference.

914und993

Others have noted that on the C4, when specified tires are mounted new, the handling is best. As the rear tire wears faster than the front, its rolling diameter decreases faster, and the differential starts sending relatively more torque to the front wheels, increasing understeer. I no longer have my C4, but what does the owners manual say about acceptable tire diameter differential in those cars? I'll bet it is much tighter than 6%.

I didn't know the ABS limited the C2 to some extent also. I wonder if newer ABS systems are smart enough to calculate and use actual rolling diameters when deciding if a tire is skidding or not?

Chip

danny951

Thanks for the great info.

I've seen several 964/C4s for sale with the newer Turbo Twist wheels and I think this looks really good. Is this an easy swap? or is there modifications that have to be done to put these wheels on an 89 or 90 C4?

Also, what size tires can be put on those front/rear? I'd love to have 275's in the rear, is this doable/recommended?