Air Induction Kits
04-07-2003, 08:21 PM
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Air Induction Kits
Evening gents, long time no see.
Spring is here and the plastic oblong thing in my wallet is burning a hole in my pocket as usual.
Just fitted a RUF front lip/spoiler which is the easiest upgrade I have ever done and the results are impressive (IMHO). Not too 'in your face'.
Anyway I digress.
I searched the archives and couldn't find any posts on the subject so was wondering what the general consensus is on Air Induction Kits such as the 'Powerflow' kit offered by Porscheshop amongst others. They (and others) state a BHP increase of 5-8bhp which for £100 odd seems a modest outlay for a bit more grunt.
Comments (about this, not my flexible friend) appreciated.
regards
Leslie
Spring is here and the plastic oblong thing in my wallet is burning a hole in my pocket as usual.
Just fitted a RUF front lip/spoiler which is the easiest upgrade I have ever done and the results are impressive (IMHO). Not too 'in your face'.
Anyway I digress.
I searched the archives and couldn't find any posts on the subject so was wondering what the general consensus is on Air Induction Kits such as the 'Powerflow' kit offered by Porscheshop amongst others. They (and others) state a BHP increase of 5-8bhp which for £100 odd seems a modest outlay for a bit more grunt.
Comments (about this, not my flexible friend) appreciated.
regards
Leslie
04-07-2003, 09:35 PM
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Leslie,
First remove your airbox cover, run two rubber bands or the like between the two catches on each side to hold the airfilter in, and drive around to see if that doesn't help. If you notice any additional grunt, save your sterling, and either cut out most of the cover or drill large holes in the cover (you do need something to hold the filter in). When the cup cars first came out, there were some in the know who said this type of modification would give about 5hp. Subsequent testing has suggested that may be a stretch. I happen to like the Porsche air filters - they do a pretty good job at filtering. Others maybe not quite as good. One benefit of the air filter kits is to clear out some of the clutter on the right side of the engine.
PS. I also installed the RUF front valance extension, and I do like the look of it.
First remove your airbox cover, run two rubber bands or the like between the two catches on each side to hold the airfilter in, and drive around to see if that doesn't help. If you notice any additional grunt, save your sterling, and either cut out most of the cover or drill large holes in the cover (you do need something to hold the filter in). When the cup cars first came out, there were some in the know who said this type of modification would give about 5hp. Subsequent testing has suggested that may be a stretch. I happen to like the Porsche air filters - they do a pretty good job at filtering. Others maybe not quite as good. One benefit of the air filter kits is to clear out some of the clutter on the right side of the engine.
PS. I also installed the RUF front valance extension, and I do like the look of it.
04-08-2003, 04:04 AM
#4
Drifting
Yes a picture of that valance would be nice Le3L13,
welcome back.
You may wish to ask the UK Titanic forum regarding the induction kits, Simon from Essential styling has just offered one, and I think its for sale on his website, he frequents titanic often, so an email would probably do the trick.
Kevin
welcome back.
You may wish to ask the UK Titanic forum regarding the induction kits, Simon from Essential styling has just offered one, and I think its for sale on his website, he frequents titanic often, so an email would probably do the trick.
Kevin
04-08-2003, 05:46 AM
#5
Leslie
IMHO I would put aside all the odd £100 purchases such as this and spend the money on something that is proven to be effective at some stage when the 'upgrade fund' has reached suitable proportions.
IMHO I would put aside all the odd £100 purchases such as this and spend the money on something that is proven to be effective at some stage when the 'upgrade fund' has reached suitable proportions.
04-08-2003, 05:38 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
Anyone have experience with Throttle Body reboring on the 964's? I just wonder if an either a stock or aftermarket intake kit (or coupled with MAF, chip or exhaust modification) would be able to functionally use more air flow.
Just a thought.
Erick
Just a thought.
Erick
04-09-2003, 06:36 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by RSAErick:
<strong>Anyone have experience with Throttle Body reboring on the 964's? I just wonder if an either a stock or aftermarket intake kit (or coupled with MAF, chip or exhaust modification) would be able to functionally use more air flow.
Just a thought.
Erick</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I purchased from Germany a bigger Throttle body for the car I think it is 70mmm diameter, I still haven´t install it but hopefully will get some extra HP, I also have a custom chip, primary muffler bypass and at the moment a "gruyere" air filter box with K&N which soon will be substituted for a cone air filter.
When I finish I will post the results.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
ALEX
<strong>Anyone have experience with Throttle Body reboring on the 964's? I just wonder if an either a stock or aftermarket intake kit (or coupled with MAF, chip or exhaust modification) would be able to functionally use more air flow.
Just a thought.
Erick</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I purchased from Germany a bigger Throttle body for the car I think it is 70mmm diameter, I still haven´t install it but hopefully will get some extra HP, I also have a custom chip, primary muffler bypass and at the moment a "gruyere" air filter box with K&N which soon will be substituted for a cone air filter.
When I finish I will post the results.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
ALEX
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04-09-2003, 01:23 PM
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Dear Alex,
The problem of fitting larger throttle bodies is that if the cross-sectional area of the new throttle body exceeds the cross-sectional area of the air flow sensor you may run into problems that you cannot see.
You must remember that the engine will always suck in as much air as it can get. You should be looking at reducing air restrictions in the system rather than kust using larger throttle bodies. The existing throttle body is matched to the air flow sensor. The DME has to know how much air is going into the engine. This is the function of the air flow sensor.
The end result of mis-matched cross sectional areas is a lean running engine and a loss of hp not a gain. Once the air flow sesnor output reaches 4.5VDC ( or so) then that is that. If more air is going into the engine then the DME will not do anything with it. The reprogrammed custom chip may also not appreciate the larger throttle body either. I have no figures for you because you system is modified. I would be contacting the chip supplier and be asking them.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
The problem of fitting larger throttle bodies is that if the cross-sectional area of the new throttle body exceeds the cross-sectional area of the air flow sensor you may run into problems that you cannot see.
You must remember that the engine will always suck in as much air as it can get. You should be looking at reducing air restrictions in the system rather than kust using larger throttle bodies. The existing throttle body is matched to the air flow sensor. The DME has to know how much air is going into the engine. This is the function of the air flow sensor.
The end result of mis-matched cross sectional areas is a lean running engine and a loss of hp not a gain. Once the air flow sesnor output reaches 4.5VDC ( or so) then that is that. If more air is going into the engine then the DME will not do anything with it. The reprogrammed custom chip may also not appreciate the larger throttle body either. I have no figures for you because you system is modified. I would be contacting the chip supplier and be asking them.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
04-09-2003, 04:06 PM
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Nice pictures & info about air intake improvements on this site:
<a href="http://www.rsr911.it/officina/catalogo/964/motore/motore964.html" target="_blank">http://www.rsr911.it/officina/catalogo/964/motore/motore964.html</a>
Ever heard about Robert Sikkens Porsche tuning?
<a href="http://www.rsr911.it/officina/catalogo/964/motore/motore964.html" target="_blank">http://www.rsr911.it/officina/catalogo/964/motore/motore964.html</a>
Ever heard about Robert Sikkens Porsche tuning?
04-09-2003, 07:34 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><strong>Please post a picture of the RUF front valance.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><img src="http://members.rennlist.com/sansho/RUF1.jpg" alt=" - " />
04-10-2003, 01:24 PM
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Is there any noticable improvement from the fitting of the Ruf front spoiler?...or is it just a visual improvement?
Also how much did it cost and is it an easy fit?
Thanks
Also how much did it cost and is it an easy fit?
Thanks
04-10-2003, 01:30 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Adrian:
<strong>Dear Alex,
The problem of fitting larger throttle bodies is that if the cross-sectional area of the new throttle body exceeds the cross-sectional area of the air flow sensor you may run into problems that you cannot see.
You must remember that the engine will always suck in as much air as it can get. You should be looking at reducing air restrictions in the system rather than kust using larger throttle bodies. The existing throttle body is matched to the air flow sensor. The DME has to know how much air is going into the engine. This is the function of the air flow sensor.
The end result of mis-matched cross sectional areas is a lean running engine and a loss of hp not a gain. Once the air flow sesnor output reaches 4.5VDC ( or so) then that is that. If more air is going into the engine then the DME will not do anything with it. The reprogrammed custom chip may also not appreciate the larger throttle body either. I have no figures for you because you system is modified. I would be contacting the chip supplier and be asking them.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Thanks Adrian, do you know the diameter of the original throttle body?
This is why some people modify the MAF and change it for a "hot film", to allow the Hot film control the amount of air comming in?
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
ALEX
<strong>Dear Alex,
The problem of fitting larger throttle bodies is that if the cross-sectional area of the new throttle body exceeds the cross-sectional area of the air flow sensor you may run into problems that you cannot see.
You must remember that the engine will always suck in as much air as it can get. You should be looking at reducing air restrictions in the system rather than kust using larger throttle bodies. The existing throttle body is matched to the air flow sensor. The DME has to know how much air is going into the engine. This is the function of the air flow sensor.
The end result of mis-matched cross sectional areas is a lean running engine and a loss of hp not a gain. Once the air flow sesnor output reaches 4.5VDC ( or so) then that is that. If more air is going into the engine then the DME will not do anything with it. The reprogrammed custom chip may also not appreciate the larger throttle body either. I have no figures for you because you system is modified. I would be contacting the chip supplier and be asking them.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Thanks Adrian, do you know the diameter of the original throttle body?
This is why some people modify the MAF and change it for a "hot film", to allow the Hot film control the amount of air comming in?
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
ALEX
04-10-2003, 01:47 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by MH_UK:
[QB]Is there any noticable improvement from the fitting of the Ruf front spoiler?...or is it just a visual improvement?
Also how much did it cost and is it an easy fit?
MH Looks like Bill beat me to the image upload.
IMHO the front end seems a little more settled (but I may just be kidding myself to justify the outlay!)
As far as fitting is concerned it was an abosolute doddle, just needs removal of 8 screws from the under valance, a bit of juggling to hold it in place and new, longer screws supplied fitting in place of the old ones. It has a neat lip on the top so it secures tightly into the small recess between bumper and valance...
Oh and it improves the front end looks molto without appearing 'over-the-top'
Cost was 295 Euro including P&P
regards
Leslie
[QB]Is there any noticable improvement from the fitting of the Ruf front spoiler?...or is it just a visual improvement?
Also how much did it cost and is it an easy fit?
MH Looks like Bill beat me to the image upload.
IMHO the front end seems a little more settled (but I may just be kidding myself to justify the outlay!)
As far as fitting is concerned it was an abosolute doddle, just needs removal of 8 screws from the under valance, a bit of juggling to hold it in place and new, longer screws supplied fitting in place of the old ones. It has a neat lip on the top so it secures tightly into the small recess between bumper and valance...
Oh and it improves the front end looks molto without appearing 'over-the-top'
Cost was 295 Euro including P&P
regards
Leslie
04-10-2003, 01:57 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Gregory:
[QB]First remove your airbox cover, run two rubber bands or the like between the two catches on each side to hold the airfilter in, and drive around to see if that doesn't help...
Bill thanks for the suggestion, I'll give it a go and let you know how I get on.
Best regards
Leslie
[QB]First remove your airbox cover, run two rubber bands or the like between the two catches on each side to hold the airfilter in, and drive around to see if that doesn't help...
Bill thanks for the suggestion, I'll give it a go and let you know how I get on.
Best regards
Leslie
04-10-2003, 05:26 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by RSAErick:
<strong>Anyone have experience with Throttle Body reboring on the 964's? I just wonder if an either a stock or aftermarket intake kit (or coupled with MAF, chip or exhaust modification) would be able to functionally use more air flow.
Just a thought.
Erick</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">A larger throttle body alone will cause the engine to run leaner than it did with the smaller one. This should in fact (as with ANY other application of aftermarket parts or services which alter the airflow) tuned with a custom chip (not an 'off the shelf' chip, but one that is burned in with the proper fuel map for your car), adjusting the rail pressure, a piggyback AFC, or standalone ECU using a wideband O2 like the system in our racecar. There is an assumption being made that the "matched" (TB/AF Sensor) system is running at Stoich at WOT (Wide Open Throttle), which is highly unlikely. I would assume that Porsche engineered the car to run richer than Stoich (14.7/1 AFR for Gasoline) at WOT. Considering most race tuners go for about 12.1/1 AFR, I would think that your car is in that ballpark or a little leaner, but nowhere near Stoich. If you were to simply add more air via an enlarged throttle body and do nothing else, you will most likely remain in a rich condition.
If the airflow capacity of the throttle body exceeds that of the airflow sensor, then the system will only flow the amount the sensor is capable of. Most systems are sized with the sensor being considerably larger than the throttle body, why have two bottlenecks when the throttle body is supposed to be the only one. I don't think Porsche, or any company has designed such a limiting system.
Our racecar is almost done, and then it will be racing time, and back to work on the new flowbench. We can look at flowing your stock throttle body and your airflow sensor if you want to determine the actual flow capacities, as well as installing the wideband O2 into your car to determine the stock AFR. We should probably dyno to see how little power you are making. I am sure it is not much, the only reason you go fast at the track is your Mad Skills. I think I have been recommending all along that the fuel tuning should be done as well, whether or not you put on the larger throttle body. It is always best to start with the ability to tune, then start the modification process (again like the racecar, it has a $2500 computer with a stock engine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ).
Jim
<strong>Anyone have experience with Throttle Body reboring on the 964's? I just wonder if an either a stock or aftermarket intake kit (or coupled with MAF, chip or exhaust modification) would be able to functionally use more air flow.
Just a thought.
Erick</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">A larger throttle body alone will cause the engine to run leaner than it did with the smaller one. This should in fact (as with ANY other application of aftermarket parts or services which alter the airflow) tuned with a custom chip (not an 'off the shelf' chip, but one that is burned in with the proper fuel map for your car), adjusting the rail pressure, a piggyback AFC, or standalone ECU using a wideband O2 like the system in our racecar. There is an assumption being made that the "matched" (TB/AF Sensor) system is running at Stoich at WOT (Wide Open Throttle), which is highly unlikely. I would assume that Porsche engineered the car to run richer than Stoich (14.7/1 AFR for Gasoline) at WOT. Considering most race tuners go for about 12.1/1 AFR, I would think that your car is in that ballpark or a little leaner, but nowhere near Stoich. If you were to simply add more air via an enlarged throttle body and do nothing else, you will most likely remain in a rich condition.
If the airflow capacity of the throttle body exceeds that of the airflow sensor, then the system will only flow the amount the sensor is capable of. Most systems are sized with the sensor being considerably larger than the throttle body, why have two bottlenecks when the throttle body is supposed to be the only one. I don't think Porsche, or any company has designed such a limiting system.
Our racecar is almost done, and then it will be racing time, and back to work on the new flowbench. We can look at flowing your stock throttle body and your airflow sensor if you want to determine the actual flow capacities, as well as installing the wideband O2 into your car to determine the stock AFR. We should probably dyno to see how little power you are making. I am sure it is not much, the only reason you go fast at the track is your Mad Skills. I think I have been recommending all along that the fuel tuning should be done as well, whether or not you put on the larger throttle body. It is always best to start with the ability to tune, then start the modification process (again like the racecar, it has a $2500 computer with a stock engine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ).
Jim
