964 Engine Rebuild or Replace with 993 engine?
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964 Engine Rebuild or Replace with 993 engine?
My '92 C2 cab currently has 111k. I plan to keep it for a really long time, so I figure that I'll eventually need to do a "complete" (as opposed to "top-end") rebuild.
With the cost of doing a complete rebuild being so high (I've heard $15-20K was the average), and used 993 motors being comparatively cheaper ($10k - $12k), along with being more powerful (270hp vs. 246hp), I was thinking about having a lower-mileage (i.e., 40-50k) 993 engine swapped in and selling my 964 engine, rather than having my engine rebuilt ("keeping it original" isn't an issue for me).
Some of the immediate issues I can think of are: (1) exhaust - I've heard that the 993 exhaust system won't fit into a 964 shell, so I'd have to either adapt a 964 exhaust or go aftermarket; (2) transmission - I'd rather keep my G50/5 speed, if it'll mate with the 993 engine (because there's nothing wrong with it and adding the 6speed 993 tranny would be more expensive); and (3) varioram/decklid clearance - not a problem for me because I have an RS America wing fitted.
Randall Granaas had this conversion done to his 964 targa. Has anyone else done this conversion or otherwise have any insights to share?
Thanks very much for your responses.
With the cost of doing a complete rebuild being so high (I've heard $15-20K was the average), and used 993 motors being comparatively cheaper ($10k - $12k), along with being more powerful (270hp vs. 246hp), I was thinking about having a lower-mileage (i.e., 40-50k) 993 engine swapped in and selling my 964 engine, rather than having my engine rebuilt ("keeping it original" isn't an issue for me).
Some of the immediate issues I can think of are: (1) exhaust - I've heard that the 993 exhaust system won't fit into a 964 shell, so I'd have to either adapt a 964 exhaust or go aftermarket; (2) transmission - I'd rather keep my G50/5 speed, if it'll mate with the 993 engine (because there's nothing wrong with it and adding the 6speed 993 tranny would be more expensive); and (3) varioram/decklid clearance - not a problem for me because I have an RS America wing fitted.
Randall Granaas had this conversion done to his 964 targa. Has anyone else done this conversion or otherwise have any insights to share?
Thanks very much for your responses.
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From: USVI
[quote]Originally posted by J-McDonald:
<strong>With the cost of doing a complete rebuild being so high (I've heard $15-20K was the average), and used 993 motors being comparatively cheaper ($10k - $12k)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Although I don't know the cost, you may want to call your local porsche dealer and ask for a price on part # 964.100.964.X This is a 89-94 M64.01/02 remanufactured engine/longblock (Complete with valve covers and crank pulley but not the flywheel.) After you call your local porsche dealer, try calling a certain (non-rennlist sponsor) porsche dealer in Beaverton oregon that sells at 15% over cost and another dealer in Charlotte, NC both advertise in Excellence and are great to deal with. Also you may want to try suncoast porsche (rennlist sponsor,) however I don't know what (if any) discounts they provide to rennlist members. With the amount of money your going to spend it will be worth it to call around. The engine comes on a crate from germany so it doesn't really matter where you buy it.
<a href="http://www2.us.porsche.com/national/ownerservices/parts.htm" target="_blank">Porsche Remanufactured Parts</a>
<strong>With the cost of doing a complete rebuild being so high (I've heard $15-20K was the average), and used 993 motors being comparatively cheaper ($10k - $12k)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Although I don't know the cost, you may want to call your local porsche dealer and ask for a price on part # 964.100.964.X This is a 89-94 M64.01/02 remanufactured engine/longblock (Complete with valve covers and crank pulley but not the flywheel.) After you call your local porsche dealer, try calling a certain (non-rennlist sponsor) porsche dealer in Beaverton oregon that sells at 15% over cost and another dealer in Charlotte, NC both advertise in Excellence and are great to deal with. Also you may want to try suncoast porsche (rennlist sponsor,) however I don't know what (if any) discounts they provide to rennlist members. With the amount of money your going to spend it will be worth it to call around. The engine comes on a crate from germany so it doesn't really matter where you buy it.
<a href="http://www2.us.porsche.com/national/ownerservices/parts.htm" target="_blank">Porsche Remanufactured Parts</a>
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From: Massachusetts
$15-$20K sounds WAY too high for a complete rebuild. I don't have firsthand experience but my guess is probably more like $5-$10k.
At $5-10$k, you'd be hard-pressed to do a 993 conversion. Plus if your engine runs fine now, you may have many, many more miles from it before your would even need to spend serious $$.
If anyone else has rebuilt a 3.6, please let us know some ideas of cost.
At $5-10$k, you'd be hard-pressed to do a 993 conversion. Plus if your engine runs fine now, you may have many, many more miles from it before your would even need to spend serious $$.
If anyone else has rebuilt a 3.6, please let us know some ideas of cost.
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From: USVI
[quote]Originally posted by Targamike:
<strong>If anyone else has rebuilt a 3.6, please let us know some ideas of cost.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I just called Hendrick Porsche and they said around $9800 for part # 964.100.964.X. Sunset Porsche told me $7721.94 (I'm pretty sure there is an additional 15% on top of that, whenever I order from them they use their cost as the line item and add 15% on the sub-total.) Not positive on shipping charges but a rough "guestimate" for shipping from NC to MA was $200. This is for a Porsche remanufactured motor with a two year limited warranty.
<strong>If anyone else has rebuilt a 3.6, please let us know some ideas of cost.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I just called Hendrick Porsche and they said around $9800 for part # 964.100.964.X. Sunset Porsche told me $7721.94 (I'm pretty sure there is an additional 15% on top of that, whenever I order from them they use their cost as the line item and add 15% on the sub-total.) Not positive on shipping charges but a rough "guestimate" for shipping from NC to MA was $200. This is for a Porsche remanufactured motor with a two year limited warranty.
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From: Washington, D.C.
Thanks for your replies. The Porsche remanufactured "crate" engine sounds like a good alternative (I'm really surprised at how "cheap"- relatively speaking- they are).
However, according to the website, they require a core exhange, which must be not "worn beyond strict tolerances". Of course, the only reason why I would buy a new engine would be that my current one would be very "worn" (i.e., low compression, low oil pressure, poor performance, etc.). I wonder how strictly they enforce that requirement.
Another reason for the swap would be increased power. I've considered doing a turbo 3.6 conversion at the same time as the rebuild (i.e., rebuild my 3.6 and add turbo and intercooler), but given that a 993 varioram motor with aftermarket exhaust and a chip is good for +/-285hp, with no turbo lag and good reliability, that may be a better alternative for me. Maybe a 993 crate motor would be a possibility?
However, according to the website, they require a core exhange, which must be not "worn beyond strict tolerances". Of course, the only reason why I would buy a new engine would be that my current one would be very "worn" (i.e., low compression, low oil pressure, poor performance, etc.). I wonder how strictly they enforce that requirement.
Another reason for the swap would be increased power. I've considered doing a turbo 3.6 conversion at the same time as the rebuild (i.e., rebuild my 3.6 and add turbo and intercooler), but given that a 993 varioram motor with aftermarket exhaust and a chip is good for +/-285hp, with no turbo lag and good reliability, that may be a better alternative for me. Maybe a 993 crate motor would be a possibility?
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From: Dana Point, CA
Unfortunately, a complete and thorough 964 engine rebuild can start reaching $15k, if (for example) the crankshaft is damaged (around $4500 list) and the plug wires are shot (close to $500 list). I'm sure I've overlooked other wear items that can add quickly to the bottom line. If your crank is damaged, you can save a lot of money by repairing/buying used, but some people may not be comfortable or have faith in this approach.
J-Mc ... one of the biggest obstacles of converting the 993 engine to fit a 964 is converting the engine wiring harness, especially an OBD-II (96+) wiring harness. Based on what Mark Hergesheimer told me, this was a real, real bear.
Exhaust ... besides converting the 964 exhaust to fit (placement of the 993 engine's 4 02 sensors is the trick here), you can try to convert the 993 system to fit (not easy), or you can install GHL's new dual cat./header/heaters. Unfortunately, the system is just under $3k, before subtracting the Rennlist 10% discount.
There's also a man named Geoff who has a 993 powered C4, works at AmD in England. Perhaps he'll be willing to give you a professional run down of the obstacles?
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=004111" target="_blank">Geoff at AmD</a>
Work your way toward the bottom, and you'll find the references to AmD and Geoff.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
J-Mc ... one of the biggest obstacles of converting the 993 engine to fit a 964 is converting the engine wiring harness, especially an OBD-II (96+) wiring harness. Based on what Mark Hergesheimer told me, this was a real, real bear.
Exhaust ... besides converting the 964 exhaust to fit (placement of the 993 engine's 4 02 sensors is the trick here), you can try to convert the 993 system to fit (not easy), or you can install GHL's new dual cat./header/heaters. Unfortunately, the system is just under $3k, before subtracting the Rennlist 10% discount.
There's also a man named Geoff who has a 993 powered C4, works at AmD in England. Perhaps he'll be willing to give you a professional run down of the obstacles?
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=3&t=004111" target="_blank">Geoff at AmD</a>
Work your way toward the bottom, and you'll find the references to AmD and Geoff.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
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From: Dana Point, CA
Hi J-Mc,
I have the 964 exhaust. Nice when the smog man commeth
.
The 993 exhaust is not an easy fit--it's really too wide for the 964's narrower body. There are challenges with the heat plumbing on the heat exchangers ... the goes-in/goes-out are in completely different locations on the 964 & 993. The right-side exhaust flanges are also flipped on the 993. Finally, the 993 exhaust requires a slot in your left-rear valence panel to accept the second muffler tip. This is actually one of the least complicated problems associated with the conversion, but the expense still isn't trivial. Plus, you've either cut your valence, or have a non-OEM valence. All this said, Kevin of the NW has done it, and so have a few others. Quite a challenge.
GHL's system was not available when I had the 993 engine installed in my car. I plan on having it installed, once (if?) it receives C.A.R.B. certification. If it had been available when the 993 engine was installed in my car, I would have had it put in and taken my chances with the smog man. If you believe what Bruce Anderson has written, you really need the 993-style tuned exhaust to get the full effect of the tuned intake (VRAM).
I have the 964 exhaust. Nice when the smog man commeth
.The 993 exhaust is not an easy fit--it's really too wide for the 964's narrower body. There are challenges with the heat plumbing on the heat exchangers ... the goes-in/goes-out are in completely different locations on the 964 & 993. The right-side exhaust flanges are also flipped on the 993. Finally, the 993 exhaust requires a slot in your left-rear valence panel to accept the second muffler tip. This is actually one of the least complicated problems associated with the conversion, but the expense still isn't trivial. Plus, you've either cut your valence, or have a non-OEM valence. All this said, Kevin of the NW has done it, and so have a few others. Quite a challenge.
GHL's system was not available when I had the 993 engine installed in my car. I plan on having it installed, once (if?) it receives C.A.R.B. certification. If it had been available when the 993 engine was installed in my car, I would have had it put in and taken my chances with the smog man. If you believe what Bruce Anderson has written, you really need the 993-style tuned exhaust to get the full effect of the tuned intake (VRAM).
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