Ragin' Bajan

After <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=003331" target="_blank">this thread</a> I've decided to buy more aggressive pads and swap them before a DE ie the night before, and have them bed in during the 6am, 1 hour drive to the track.

Now, onto what probably amounts to a religious question: which pad?
I've heard good things about Ferodo's, and Pagid Orange seems to the the pad of choice among Rennlisters. Anyone have any experience with Ferodo DS2500 (combo street/track), Ferodo DS3000 (Race) <a href="http://www.empire1.net/racing/neonracer/ferodo_compounds.shtml" target="_blank">(Ferodo descriptions)</a> to compare to Pagid Oranges?

FYI: I had Hawk Comp , and were not overly happy with them. I'm told the DS2500 is above a Comp . The main advantage for me is that I can get an outstandingly good deal on the DS2500's, but not DS3000 or Pagid Orange. PO is a bit cheaper than DS3000.

Thanks for your help.

Bill Gregory

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>I've decided to buy more aggressive pads and swap them before a DE ie the night before, and have them bed in during the 6am, 1 hour drive to the track.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Another more aggressive pad you might consider at the Performance Friction Z-rated pads. I used those as a dual purpose street/track pad and was very pleased with the improvement over stock pads. Pagids Oranges, and the like, are yet another level of improvement above that.

If you get Pagid Oranges, a one hour street drive to the track won't bed them in, and you want to bed them in before you get to the track. If you don't bed them in, there are two concerns:first, green fade where glues in the pad bubble up, out, and onto the face of the rotor and you experience a reduction of braking power. Second reason is that Pagid Oranges can sometimes deposit pad material on the rotor, resulting in symptoms of a warped rotor. I've always bedded in my Pagid Oranges, and also use slotted rotors (or ATE Powerdiscs on the SC) and never had any pad material clumping. Can't guarantee that proper bedding will prevent clumping, however, as part of my use of Pagid Oranges, I haven't experienced that problem.

Bedding procedure for Pagid's, courtesy of Paragon Products, is:

Basic Bedding In - 3-4 stops with light to medium brake pressure from start (90mph) to finish (60mph). Distance between each stop should be approximately 1/4 mile. The pads should NOT reach temperatures ABOVE 575 to 750 degrees during bedding in process.

Bedding in at High Speed - 1 stop with medium to heavy brake pressure (without allowing lockup) from start (110mph) to finish (60mph). Perform recovery stops with light brake pressure 2-3 times. Repeat the 1 to 2 times. Allow a cooling off distance of approximately 3/10 mile between high speed stops.

Mounting New Pads on Used Discs - Edges of the pad surface should be filed at a 45 degree angle to insure that the pad contacts the disc fully and evenly.

Ragin' Bajan

Hi Bill,
my understanding (possibly wrong), is that there is an initial bedding in process, which I'd do on a deserted stretch of road. I'd then switch back to street pads and use them daily. Then, the day before track day, I'd swap pads. There could be some rotor wear and so there wouldn't be full contact with the race pads, and the drive to the track would wear down the pad for full contact. So there would be a 'mini rebedding' procedure on the way to the track, just to make sure the pad comes into full contact with the rotor. Is there something else that I'm missing? Do I in fact have to redo the full bedding procedure every time the pads are swapped?

mds

I used DS3000 front pads on new front rotors once at a DE event at Laguna Seca. By mid afternoon the rotors were heavy scored, the pads had quite a bit of edge crumbling and most of the compound was gone. Also friction levels were high and so brakes were biased too much toward the front. I bedded the pads the night before, but maybe I didn't do a good enough job. In any case, I won't use them again.

Manny Alban

FWIW, at the Washington DC Gran Prix, a friend of mine was running a 996 Cup Car. He was changing pads and rotors. He was switching to Pagids. While we were doing the job, the Pagid Rep came running up and said (in a heavy German accent) "you should not use Pagids on disc that have been used with other pads". When we told him that these were new rotors, he smiled and gave us the thumbs up. Don't know if its true for all Pagids, but it's something to think about.

Bill Gregory

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong> Do I in fact have to redo the full bedding procedure every time the pads are swapped?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">No, once bedded in, you're fine.

Ragin' Bajan

Hi Bill,
thanks for the response. I was poking around a bit more and came across some contradictory information I'm hoping this formum can clear up. If I find the web pages I'll edit this thread to add them in.

For 'race' pads e.g. Pagid Orange, Ferodo DS3000, it appears stopping is accomplished by friction with the rotor, just like regular street pads (eg OEM pads), but also by 'adhesion' (maybe the wrong term) with pad material that has been spread along the rotor. To expand, part of the bedding in process seems to be to burn off some initial junk (avoid green fade), and make sure the pad is in full contact with the rotor. However, in addition, for race pads, the idea is also to leave a layer of pad material on the rotor. The bedding in process deposits the layer, and then 'bakes' it on with the heat which is why there's this series of slow then mid level braking, rather than just a couple hard stops to wear off the initial layer of the pad.

As a result of this deposit, you'll hear that you shouldn't mix race pads ie the composition of a Ferodo is different from a Hawk, different from a Pagid, and so once a rotor is 'impregnated', it's a bad idea to mix in another compound.

Ok, so if all this is true, then for my application, which is to drive around with Porterfield R4S (combo street/light DE) and then swap in my 'race' pads just before the DE,
then it appears I must rebed the pads before each event. I'm assuming that after initial bed-in, that if I then drive around with the Porterfields they'll scrub off the race pad compound so carefully deposited on the rotor, and so I'll need to redo the process. The drive to the local track is about an hour a way by highway and I'd be on around 6am on a Sat/Sun so it may be a good place to do the bedding in, rather than on Friday night.

As far as the clumping problem goes (mentioned in previous post), I'm wondering if that could occur because of improper bedding in, where the deposited material doesn't 'stick' consistently and so is a only on part of the rotor. However, this is pure speculation on my part.

Lets assume I bed in the pads initially, scrub off any material on the rotor through daily driving and then head off to the track. Any idea of the penalty of not pedding in the pads appropriately? The first session of the track would probably bed them in, but I might 'lose' this session.

Just trying to determine the PIA factor here. I might opt for Ferodo DS2500 level pad instead of DS3000 depending on this.

Man, why are things so complicated? Ignorance is indeed bliss (albeit often short-lived).

Thanks in advance for any help!

Strabo

I used Pagid orange for a couple of years. Results on the track are fine, but if you do not bed them in just right the result is terrible for the rotors. They also scream like crazy when cold. I got tired of screwing around with them and switched to Hawk Blue. They work just as well on the track, do not squeal as much on the street, and have a no-brainer bedding in process.