robmug

I'd like to create the definitive Tiptronic guide. What I have listed below is 12 questions (mine). I'd like other Rennlisters to a) answer these questions or b) ask more questions or c) add useful hints, tips and experience or d) all 3.

At the 'end' of the discussion, I'd like to put a summary together, either as a post or as a tecnhical summary. (Moderators - can I do this?)

I'd certainly appreciate some help from expreienced Tip owners, or people who understand the technical side of the system, who can shed some light on how to accelerate the learning process and get the best from this system...This isn't a moan - but it is the source of frustration for me. I REALLY want tiptronic to work. It is my first auto ever, and I like the idea of it, but not the aplication. I find it is often in the wrong gear, or is after much heavier throttle inputs than I'd like.

So the twelve top tips are, at the moment, more like 12 top questions, with one overriding question... Is the system clever, or stupid? Is it me that needs reprogramming? I'm left feeling that I should learn how to drive it better - hence this list.

1. Why does it change into 2nd even when I don't want it to. (eg, in manual mode, shift down to 1st; pull away. Lift off a bit (3000rpm ish) changes to 2nd with NO input from me. Also, why do the revs drop to idle when I lift (only happens in manual mode, only in 1st)

2. Only way to hold revs is with heavy throttle positions. Is there any way to get the tip box to hold revs? My 'normal' driving style is, generally, light throttle, changing up at 2500-3000. Tip system associates higher revs with flat-out driving; I don't

3. Is there any way to get it to use 1st gear (other than starting in position '3') - in D, it is essentially a 3 speed auto. Even in 'manual' you have to manually shift to 1st. Start off in '3' and it starts in 1st, but still climbs very quickly to 3rd.

4. In 'manual' modes (3,2,1) I get quite a bit of drivetrain shunt...is this normal or do I have worn engine/gearbox mounts?

5. My gearknob and handbrake have faded (cabriolet sun faded) - any aftermarket replacements available? I haven't seen any.

6. DME reset works on manual cars...does it work well for Tiptronics? Is there any way to reset the Tip brain?

7. Is there any way to reprogramme the Tip brain? If there is a brain, surely it can be changed...Surely someone has found out how to adapt this system...

8. Transmission oil. How often should it be changed? What are the symptoms of a long overdue tranny oil change?

9. Downshifting. As mentioned before on previous threads, the tip doesn't change down soon enough when slowing. This means that sometimes, after slowing, you pull away in 4th at 30-ish mph. I'd like the system to change down as I brake.

10. 5 modes. Really? What are they? Is there any way of pre-selecting the mode? The problem with the system self-selecting the mode is that it is always responding . I'd rather pre-select the mode, and for the mode chosen to change the change-up points and the degree of torque converter slippage. 'Race' mode would be change up at red line, no torque converter slip, fast shifts.

11. Really quick getaways - is there a way of raisng the revs prior to a standing start? (Auto equivalent of dumping the clutch at 3500rpm). Sometimes (only sometimes) I really want to let rip...

12. Traction control. Do tip cars have some form of traction control (eg accelerometers, per C4s). What factors influence these? What does this mean in terms of understanding the system?

Thanks all - I'm looking forward to all of your contributions. I know we're a bit of a minority, but I'd like to make sure that Rennlist is THE place for users to find out how to get the best from this system.

John Boggiano

They are good questions.

I think the changing up early (/changing down too late) problem is to do with meeting fuel-economy figures.

I don't have a tiptronic but, when it came out, I was very impressed with the reports and thought I wanted one.

Unfortunatelty, driving one made me realise that all you could do as a driver was tinker with what is very much an automatic gearbox, so I walked away.

Just too compromised for me.

Very useful in the right circumstances though, of course.

johnfm

Rob

we should meet so you can drive my tip. I don't experience your problems.

1. It will change into 2nd at 5800 rpm, even in manual mode. It SHOULD NOT change up if you let off the revs at 3000 as you say in your post. Mine stays in first all the way up & down unless I hit 5800 rpm.

2. If you don't use alot of throttle, the tip will shift up through the gears early. This is its ' non sport' driving around town mode. THe best solution is to drive in '3' instead of D. You stay in the right gear & get 1st gear for take off.

3. Driving in 3 is the best 'auto' mode around town - you get to use the engine somewhere near where the engine is making useful torque. It should not 'quickly change up to third' as in your post.

4.DOn't know what drive train shunt is - sorry.

5. Not a tiptonic query...can't help...

6. DOn't know

7. Don't think so & I don't think it is worth it. I personally think yours isn't working properly.

8. Every 24000 miles I believe. It cost about £300 (I think??) for Strasse to change filter and oil.

9. Again, I think your tip brain is malfunctioning. If you want to change down while braking, use manual mode.

10. Modes are responding to your inputs. I don't think torque converter slippage is programmable as it is an hydraulic mechanism with a lock up mechanism. If you stick the boot into the thottle, the torque converter will lock up straight away anyway.

11. Don't know - I don't do much drag racing or 0-60 time testing.

12. I don't think so. I'm pretty sure there is no electronic (ie spark timing or fuelling control) traction management.

AS I said before, I think you need to drive another tip just to see if your problems are with your car only.

robmug

JohnB

Thanks - I thought I wanted one too! I do quite a bit of driving in traffic, so thought it would be nice. Feeling a bit too much of a compromise at the moment, but JohnFs response has been encouraging - if mine's not working too well then it may improve. You have to try these things to know what you do & don't want...

JohnF

Thanks for the response. I think you're right; I need to drive another to see the difference. Certainly sounds like yours is not experiencing the same issues. I'll carry out some routine maintenance on it, do the DME reset as planned and see what happens. I'd like to take you up on the offer to meet up and experience yours. I'm sure the opportunity will arise.

johnfm

Rob

it sounds as if its not truly running in manual mode (your first note). There is a possibility that the switch which is actualed when you move the lever into the manual ( +- )part of the gate isn't functioning. I read recently on the 964 smartgroup that someone had their sreplaced. I've not got my workshop manual at work, so I can't check, but there may be a simple (ie no hammer) method for checking that thsi switch is giving out the appropriate signal. Failing that, take it to a good independent specialist.

robmug

Thanks John...it's actually at PCT today having some new brakes. I think I'll ask them to give me their opinion on the Tip.

Regards

johnfm

New brakes - discs & pads?? Did my front discs/pads last night took less than 2 hours!

Good luck with the tip!

robmug

Rear discs & pads. Got a slight dragging feeling when crawling. Worsens to a wobble at speed. Friends will testfify that I like my brakes to work really well! I think the 964 brakes are equally as impressive as the acceleration; but not when the car vibrates.

I was going to do them myself, but fancied giving PCT a try. Just moved to nice new premises; gave me a Smart coutesy car too.

MikeA

Your tip definitely has problems. In manual mode, I have full control. It will not upshift unless I shift up (or redline). It will downshift to 2nd gear at stop, but thats it. But starting in second gear on flat is not a problem for tip. I rarely downshift to 1st gear at stop unless I am going uphill, or in traffic.

Also, do not let off the gas when shifting.

When tip is used correctly, it is alot of fun.

Almost everybody who has made fun of a tip and driven with me, has changed their attitude toward a tip.

I almost never use automatic mode because it sucks.

Bob D.

JohnF, your comment about "a simple (ie no hammer) method" to test for Tip problems caught my eye.

Forgive my ignorance, but do Tip problems generate fault codes that are readable by the Hammer (or perhaps by some other method)?

Anyone?

mark_in_maine

Rob:

I too have a 91 C2 Cab with a tip. I too experience what you are describe in item #1 of your list. I place the tip in manual mode and select 1st. I then accelerate away down the driveway which is fairly long in 1st running the car up to about 3000 rpms and then let off the throttle to stop at the end of the driveway. The second I let off the throttle the tip shifts up into second gear and the revs fall off to an idle and the car essentially is coasting. I have to shift it manually back into first and then accelerate away.

I would be interested to know if there is someway around this as it is somewhat annoying.

I also agree with Mike A that driving a tip in manually mode sucks and is something that I rarely do.

johnfm

Bob D

the automatic transmission section of the workshop manual I have on CD has a detaled section on diagnosis and a description of how the tipronic works. Fault codes are stored and are retrievable by the system tester (THe Hammer.

There is also a lengthy trouble shooting section. It seems that there is a hydraulic control unit (HCU)which control internal brakes, clutches, baffles etc with hydraulics), an electronic control unit (ECU) which I expect actuates solenoids & so on within the HCU and a load of sensors (thrttle pot, longitunidal and tranverse accelerometers etc).

I have to say, it doesn't look like a simple task, but I expect it is a section worth reading if you think you are having problems with the tip.

MikeA

To mark_in_maine, I ONLY drive in manual mode, almost never in automatic. The gearing in a tip car is different than in a manual transmission car. First gear should be thought of as a low gear and used rarely, while 2,3,4 are the regular gears to use.

So think of 2nd gear as the 1st gear.

Starting in 2nd gear on a tip is no where near starting in 2nd gear in a manual transmission car.
There is much more torque in the tip 2nd gear. It was made for starting in this gear. It will not kill your engine nor destroy your transmission.

That is why the computer always defaults to 2nd gear when coming to stop.

Fuel economy was porsche's driving force in creating this gearing for the tip.

Mike A. 91 c2 cab tip

mark_in_maine

correction to previous post
I meant to say the automatic mode not the "manually" mode.

johnfm

Mike

sorry to disagree, but taking off in 2nd is OK if you want to just crawl around town, but 1st gear is where its at. There is not more torque in 2nd in the tip - Second gear in the tip, after accounting for differences in final drive ratio, is somewhere between 2nd and 3rd gear in the 5 speed manual. 1st gear is actually a little less tall than 1st gear in the manuals too, so 1st in the tip offers slightly less acceleration than first in the 5 speed (45 mph at 6000 rpm for the tip - vs - 39 mph for the 5 speed - vs - 34 mph for the 993 ROW manual). These estimates depend on tire sizes obviously. THe toque converter does a lot of slipping, allowing the engine to get a bit further into the torque band - maybe this is why you think there is more torque in 2nd for the tip vs the manual. The gear ratios don't support this.

If you never use 1st you are really missing out - the 3.6 doesn't really start to produce much torque until at least 2500 rpm - 4k is where it starts to kick, the cam REAALLY comes in at about 5.5k. Using 2nd sees the engine producing little torque and lots of torque converter slip.

I find the best way to use the box around town in auto mode is in '3'. This gives you first gear from standstill and allows you to drive in the 3000 rpm range. Lugging around at 1500 top 2000 rpm in 4th defeats the purpose of having a 964 - all just my humble 0.02c.