964 vs. 993 experience
03-05-2003, 06:41 PM
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964 vs. 993 experience
How would those of you who have driven both compare the two? I'm particularly interested in comparing the turbo-look 964 to the C4S/C2S 993. Is the 964 a dangerous proposition for a novice in terms of tail-happiness? How much would the average driver notice the different rear suspensions?
Is the 993 with varioram hugely quicker?
Are 993s and 964s exactly the same dimensions on the interior, or is a 993 slightly bigger inside? How about outside dimensions? Which model is heavier, in general? Thanks.
Is the 993 with varioram hugely quicker?
Are 993s and 964s exactly the same dimensions on the interior, or is a 993 slightly bigger inside? How about outside dimensions? Which model is heavier, in general? Thanks.
03-05-2003, 07:34 PM
#2
Sodly:
The 964 and 993 share the same internal dimensions. The interior is basically unchanged from 1965 to 1998. The wheelbase remains unchanged from 1969 to 1998.
A 964 C2 coupe weighs about 3031 lbs. A 993 C2 coupe weighs about 3080.
Car and Driver did a test of the 964 C2 coupe in January 1990 and got the following numbers:
0-60: 4.8 seconds
1/4 Mile: 13.3 @ 106 mph
Top Speed: 161 mph
Car and Driver did a test of a 993 C2 coupe in June 1994 and got the following numbers:
0-60: 4.7 seconds
1/4 mile: 13.4 seconds @ 104 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 162 mph.
Again, all kinds of factors play into the above numbers like car to car variances, so the comparision above should be taken with a grain of salt. My point is that yes, the 993 is slightly faster on paper, but the increase is probably not noticeable to the driver.
Tail happiness was disapearing more and more as the car was developed throughout the late '70's and 80's. A 964 won't cause a novice any trouble if you don't do anything stupid or against the laws of physics.
Hopefully others can fill you in on the different driving feels of the two suspensions.
Jay
<a href="http://www.jays911.com" target="_blank">90 964</a>
The 964 and 993 share the same internal dimensions. The interior is basically unchanged from 1965 to 1998. The wheelbase remains unchanged from 1969 to 1998.
A 964 C2 coupe weighs about 3031 lbs. A 993 C2 coupe weighs about 3080.
Car and Driver did a test of the 964 C2 coupe in January 1990 and got the following numbers:
0-60: 4.8 seconds
1/4 Mile: 13.3 @ 106 mph
Top Speed: 161 mph
Car and Driver did a test of a 993 C2 coupe in June 1994 and got the following numbers:
0-60: 4.7 seconds
1/4 mile: 13.4 seconds @ 104 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 162 mph.
Again, all kinds of factors play into the above numbers like car to car variances, so the comparision above should be taken with a grain of salt. My point is that yes, the 993 is slightly faster on paper, but the increase is probably not noticeable to the driver.
Tail happiness was disapearing more and more as the car was developed throughout the late '70's and 80's. A 964 won't cause a novice any trouble if you don't do anything stupid or against the laws of physics.
Hopefully others can fill you in on the different driving feels of the two suspensions.
Jay
<a href="http://www.jays911.com" target="_blank">90 964</a>
03-05-2003, 07:40 PM
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I'll give it a crack.
* As for the narrow-body versions, they are very similar to drive. The clutch is a bit lighter on the 993, but the handling is comparable. I'm not sure about turbo-look vs. S cars. Anyone?
* The 964 and 993 are both set up to understeer from the Factory. Both are quite safe for the average motorist unless you do something silly.
* Varioram is very quick but smooth, i.e. it doesn't feel faster but it definitely is!
* The interior of the 993 seems a little more cramped due to the large speaker compartment in the door, but again, they are very similar.
* These are heavy cars which are hard to tell apart. Jump into a 3.2 or SC and you'll definitely realize a difference in mass, but not between these two.
Go and drive them and see what YOU think.
* As for the narrow-body versions, they are very similar to drive. The clutch is a bit lighter on the 993, but the handling is comparable. I'm not sure about turbo-look vs. S cars. Anyone?
* The 964 and 993 are both set up to understeer from the Factory. Both are quite safe for the average motorist unless you do something silly.
* Varioram is very quick but smooth, i.e. it doesn't feel faster but it definitely is!
* The interior of the 993 seems a little more cramped due to the large speaker compartment in the door, but again, they are very similar.
* These are heavy cars which are hard to tell apart. Jump into a 3.2 or SC and you'll definitely realize a difference in mass, but not between these two.
Go and drive them and see what YOU think.
03-05-2003, 07:41 PM
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Sodly, I own a 964 cab and a 993 C4S. They did not make any turbo look 964's other than the American Roadster, a wide bodied cab. I would assume from a seat of the pants perspective, my cab would drive very much like an AR.
I personally think the "tail happiness" stigma is not a real world occurrence and is probably more prevalent on the race track.
Here is my seat of the pants perspective. The varioram helps flatten out the torque curve and provides very linear acceleration. I feel that the 993 is quicker but not by much. The 964 on the other hand "feels" quick because the acceleration is not flat as it kind of kicks you in the back.
I feel like there is more room in the 993 and especially in the back (at least that is what my kids tell me). It could also be a function of comparing a cab to a coupe. The two cars sit side by side in the garage and for all intents, are almost identical in size. The 993 is heavier but I think that also gives it a sturdier ride.
Why do you ask? Are you comtemplating one or the other?
I personally think the "tail happiness" stigma is not a real world occurrence and is probably more prevalent on the race track.
Here is my seat of the pants perspective. The varioram helps flatten out the torque curve and provides very linear acceleration. I feel that the 993 is quicker but not by much. The 964 on the other hand "feels" quick because the acceleration is not flat as it kind of kicks you in the back.
I feel like there is more room in the 993 and especially in the back (at least that is what my kids tell me). It could also be a function of comparing a cab to a coupe. The two cars sit side by side in the garage and for all intents, are almost identical in size. The 993 is heavier but I think that also gives it a sturdier ride.
Why do you ask? Are you comtemplating one or the other?
03-05-2003, 08:43 PM
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Sodly, when I first considered buying a porsche I also was conscious of the stories of the cars being a trap for young players and of them having a predilection for heading off the road backwards into the bushes at the slightest provocation.
My experience since owning my 964 C2 widebody cab has been just the opposite. I would say that even on wet roads the car has vastly better grip and is thus safer than any other car I have driven under any normal driving situation on the public roads.
What surprised me much more was that when pushing it very hard (for me) on a race track - on a driver ed day - it seemed extremely balanced in the corners and responded well to throttle variation. I was expecting it to be very twitchy when cornering hard and tending to want to always oversteer, but no way. Just shows my ignorance of the car. I did learn though that if you are really determined to spin it you can do so by cornering near the limit and suddenly take your foot right off the throttle . . . . when I did it the back of the car overtook the front round the outside of the corner. By the way, I did this as part of a supervised exercise where we were trying to flip the back of our porsches around on a very wet patch of road. Only me and one other driver out of maybe a dozen managed to lose the back end of our porsches, even though that was the aim of the exercise, such was the grip these cars have. I would now be very unlikely to do this accidentally!
On your other point regarding internal space, I think the cab has slightly narrower hip room across the back "seats" than the coupe because the roof open/close mechanism sits behind a false cover on each side.
Sorry for the long reply.
My experience since owning my 964 C2 widebody cab has been just the opposite. I would say that even on wet roads the car has vastly better grip and is thus safer than any other car I have driven under any normal driving situation on the public roads.
What surprised me much more was that when pushing it very hard (for me) on a race track - on a driver ed day - it seemed extremely balanced in the corners and responded well to throttle variation. I was expecting it to be very twitchy when cornering hard and tending to want to always oversteer, but no way. Just shows my ignorance of the car. I did learn though that if you are really determined to spin it you can do so by cornering near the limit and suddenly take your foot right off the throttle . . . . when I did it the back of the car overtook the front round the outside of the corner. By the way, I did this as part of a supervised exercise where we were trying to flip the back of our porsches around on a very wet patch of road. Only me and one other driver out of maybe a dozen managed to lose the back end of our porsches, even though that was the aim of the exercise, such was the grip these cars have. I would now be very unlikely to do this accidentally!
On your other point regarding internal space, I think the cab has slightly narrower hip room across the back "seats" than the coupe because the roof open/close mechanism sits behind a false cover on each side.
Sorry for the long reply.
03-05-2003, 09:07 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
The Varioram adds midrange torque, and it does pull harder at lower revs. However, there is no difference in outright performance b/w Varioram and non-Varioram 993s -- you just have to shift more in the non-Varioram car.
Porsche did make another "Turbo-Look" 964 -- the '94 model Carrera 4.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Porsche did make another "Turbo-Look" 964 -- the '94 model Carrera 4.
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
03-06-2003, 03:40 PM
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Thanks for all the input. This would be a first Porsche for me. I think the 996s are just a bit too big for my tastes (I'm coming out of a 2002 M3, which is also too big/heavy). I'm attracted to both the 993 and 964 coupes, esp. the widebodies. Unfortunately, I don't have any opportunity to drive either. How does one go about getting experience behind the wheel of various models? I'm all ears.
In terms of maintenance, is a 964 really that much more to maintain (i.e. valve adjustments). I probably wouldn't put more than a few thousand miles per year on a porsche. Should this even be a concern?
In terms of maintenance, is a 964 really that much more to maintain (i.e. valve adjustments). I probably wouldn't put more than a few thousand miles per year on a porsche. Should this even be a concern?
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03-06-2003, 04:11 PM
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For some seat time, I would suggest looking at the used lot at local Porsche dealerships - they take in 993s as trade-ins and typically keep the good ones to sell from their lot. 964s are really too old for most Porsche dealers to get very many of, so, to find a 964 that you can drive, you'll have to go to a "specialty" car dealer or try private party cars being offered for sale. Try contacting your local chapter of the Porsche Club of America for recommendations as to specialty dealers. Look in your local newspaper for private party car ads. Also, try looking on cars.com, autotrader.com and ebaymotors.com for cars.
The maintenance on either a 964 or 993 won't be cheap - oil changes are $125 and everything else is proportional to it being a $70,000 MSRP car. Although 993's don't need valve adjustments, they have an extra oil filter, which needs to be changed and, I've heard, it takes more labor to get to things due to the exhaust system's configuration. As a result, there will probably be little difference, in practice, between the maintenance costs for 964s and 993s.
The key is finding a car that has been properly maintained - so you don't spend your first year of ownership "catching up" on deferred maintenance from the previous owner. This is why it is *essential* to get a pre-purchase inspection done by someone who specializes in air-cooled Porsches.
Good luck!
The maintenance on either a 964 or 993 won't be cheap - oil changes are $125 and everything else is proportional to it being a $70,000 MSRP car. Although 993's don't need valve adjustments, they have an extra oil filter, which needs to be changed and, I've heard, it takes more labor to get to things due to the exhaust system's configuration. As a result, there will probably be little difference, in practice, between the maintenance costs for 964s and 993s.
The key is finding a car that has been properly maintained - so you don't spend your first year of ownership "catching up" on deferred maintenance from the previous owner. This is why it is *essential* to get a pre-purchase inspection done by someone who specializes in air-cooled Porsches.
Good luck!
03-06-2003, 06:27 PM
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Obviously, you are in the market for a P-car. Go through the local ads and make as many appointments as possible to look and drive prospective 964 and 993's. When I was in the market, I did not have a problem from any seller about test drives. In fact, as a seller, that is one of the best ways to create "emotional" attachment for your car.
My advice would be to drive as many examples as possible as no two P-cars drive the same. Decide what and how you will be using you P-car, and get the 993. As the current owner of a 964 and 993, IMHO, it is well worth the additional coin to step up to a 993 if you can afford to.
My advice would be to drive as many examples as possible as no two P-cars drive the same. Decide what and how you will be using you P-car, and get the 993. As the current owner of a 964 and 993, IMHO, it is well worth the additional coin to step up to a 993 if you can afford to.
03-06-2003, 11:01 PM
#10
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Well I can take this from another angle....
I have logged a lot of miles in a 2002 M3, we just had one in the family and upgraded to a 1992 C2 Turbo. I can't say if I like the 964's more than the 993's, because I really like them both.
But what I can tell you, is that with either you will fell 1000% more connected with your car. The e46 M3 is one of the most vague sports cars I have ever driven. The 911's and even my 944 Turbo made the M3 feel like the boat it was and is.
Good luck with the P-car, which ever you choose I'm sure it will be great for you....
I have logged a lot of miles in a 2002 M3, we just had one in the family and upgraded to a 1992 C2 Turbo. I can't say if I like the 964's more than the 993's, because I really like them both.
But what I can tell you, is that with either you will fell 1000% more connected with your car. The e46 M3 is one of the most vague sports cars I have ever driven. The 911's and even my 944 Turbo made the M3 feel like the boat it was and is.
Good luck with the P-car, which ever you choose I'm sure it will be great for you....
03-07-2003, 08:41 AM
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When I bought a used '94 993 ( not an S)back in 97, I considered a 'celebration' edition 964 made in '93 with the turbolook body, this car was similar price because it was 'rarer'...but the popular wisdom was that 993 was a 'better' car because of the rear suspension improvements. My guess is that the 97-8 widebody 993 being 4 years younger than the 93-4 widebody 964 and being the last of the aircooleds, sells at a premium. You choose that model 993 ,you are paying more. But if you like the more traditional upright headlamp narrow front wing look then pay less and enjoy the 964. Performance 964 vs 993,as others have said, is not really an issue, and maintenance cost pretty similar.
Personally I see the turbolook cars without turbo engine as a marketing exercise late in the ( 964 or 993) model run to keep sales up just before the new model comes in <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Personally I see the turbolook cars without turbo engine as a marketing exercise late in the ( 964 or 993) model run to keep sales up just before the new model comes in <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
03-07-2003, 11:54 AM
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Marketing exercise or not, you gotta love those curves.
The hard part for me is I'm an obsessive investigator when it comes to cars. I want to research-to-death and have the exact car and specs selected before I start actively shopping. Since I'm still a full year or more away from purchase time, it's difficult to test drive cars, since I'm not a serious buyer-- at the moment. I'm just a serious researcher!
Maybe that's part of the fun of the looking, when the time finally comes. I wish I could just go to a Porsche store and test drive various models, but it just doesn't happen like that (especially when there's only one small Pcar dealer in your whole state). I've been fortunate in the past to get some test drives in friends' cars, but they've all been 986/996s. I'd like to have all the picking and choosing done now so I can zero in on one particular model when the time comes.
Talk about schizophrenic... I'm torn between a restored 356A, 964 or 993. Talk about a wide spectrum! Anyone out there have bookend Porsches (besides Seinfeld) that they'd care to compare/contrast?
Thanks for all of your help.
The hard part for me is I'm an obsessive investigator when it comes to cars. I want to research-to-death and have the exact car and specs selected before I start actively shopping. Since I'm still a full year or more away from purchase time, it's difficult to test drive cars, since I'm not a serious buyer-- at the moment. I'm just a serious researcher!
Maybe that's part of the fun of the looking, when the time finally comes. I wish I could just go to a Porsche store and test drive various models, but it just doesn't happen like that (especially when there's only one small Pcar dealer in your whole state). I've been fortunate in the past to get some test drives in friends' cars, but they've all been 986/996s. I'd like to have all the picking and choosing done now so I can zero in on one particular model when the time comes.
Talk about schizophrenic... I'm torn between a restored 356A, 964 or 993. Talk about a wide spectrum! Anyone out there have bookend Porsches (besides Seinfeld) that they'd care to compare/contrast?
Thanks for all of your help.
03-08-2003, 01:44 PM
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I was very tempted to upgrade to a 993c2 6 months ago,but after driving many 993c2's and lots of thought I decided that the extra performance and better handling were not worth the extra cost.The 993 is in my opinion a better looking car.
Arnold 90 C2 132000 kms
Arnold 90 C2 132000 kms
03-08-2003, 05:57 PM
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Sodly:
Starting to get off the main subject heading but you asked about bookend Porsches. I do not go back as far as a 356 but I did have a 71 911E Targa and it's interesting comparing it to my current '92 964 Targa. It is impressive what 20 years of technology development can do, i.e. 2.2l to 3.6l, creature comforts, and just plain power and torque.
There are an amazing amount of similarities. Two of the big differences that come to mind almost daily is the ride and space. My personal preference for long distance cruising I preferred the ride of the older car. And space, the technology improvements of 4WD, center console and electronic boxes has encroached into the living space.
In the current trunk I can fit one overnite bag and maybe a carry on jammed in there. During a 4 week cross country trip in the old Targa a couple of years ago I managed to pack: 2 suitcases, a carry on bag, a tool box, a case of oil, a tent, a car cover, camera bag, a small and large ice cooler (actually stored in the back seat) and I still had room to store the roof when I took the top off. I can't do that any more. But as I'm getting softer, I prefer the creature comforts of modern technology.
As was mentioned in previous postings, every Porsche has its own personality, buy whatever fits best to you and turnes you on.
dcc
Starting to get off the main subject heading but you asked about bookend Porsches. I do not go back as far as a 356 but I did have a 71 911E Targa and it's interesting comparing it to my current '92 964 Targa. It is impressive what 20 years of technology development can do, i.e. 2.2l to 3.6l, creature comforts, and just plain power and torque.
There are an amazing amount of similarities. Two of the big differences that come to mind almost daily is the ride and space. My personal preference for long distance cruising I preferred the ride of the older car. And space, the technology improvements of 4WD, center console and electronic boxes has encroached into the living space.
In the current trunk I can fit one overnite bag and maybe a carry on jammed in there. During a 4 week cross country trip in the old Targa a couple of years ago I managed to pack: 2 suitcases, a carry on bag, a tool box, a case of oil, a tent, a car cover, camera bag, a small and large ice cooler (actually stored in the back seat) and I still had room to store the roof when I took the top off. I can't do that any more. But as I'm getting softer, I prefer the creature comforts of modern technology.
As was mentioned in previous postings, every Porsche has its own personality, buy whatever fits best to you and turnes you on.
dcc
03-09-2003, 05:16 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
Sodly, I wouldn't worry about the difference in maintenance costs, because the going rate for 964's is a LOT cheaper than 993's. Like on the order of $10,000-$15,000. You can buy a lot of maintenance with that.