Suspention upgrade done!
06-24-2002, 01:05 PM
#1
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Suspention upgrade done!
Hey Volks,
Just got my 1990 C4 (Production date 1989/07) back from the workshop after having fitted stainless steel brakehoses, shortshifter, FVD suspension kit (Bilstein/Eibach) with Euro RS alignment specs., front strutbrace and I'm not 100% happy!
The workshop was supposed to have fitted a rear 22mm swaybar but the part (FVD) that was ordered did not fit, the shape of the new part was not even close to the shape of the original item, so it was sent back to FVD and yes, it was the correct part no. and all! I remember reading a post a while ago, that indicated exactly the same problem. Are there different shaped rear swaybars for the 1990 C4?
The car still understeers, perhaps even more now that the strutbrace has stiffened up the front while the rear remains unchanged due to the swaybar issue. The ride is firm but body roll is unchanged. The shortshift and breaklines are great and so are the looks of the lowered car.
I'd appreciate any good advice on how to solve the rear swaybar issue!
Ciao,
Johannes E.
<img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
Just got my 1990 C4 (Production date 1989/07) back from the workshop after having fitted stainless steel brakehoses, shortshifter, FVD suspension kit (Bilstein/Eibach) with Euro RS alignment specs., front strutbrace and I'm not 100% happy!
The workshop was supposed to have fitted a rear 22mm swaybar but the part (FVD) that was ordered did not fit, the shape of the new part was not even close to the shape of the original item, so it was sent back to FVD and yes, it was the correct part no. and all! I remember reading a post a while ago, that indicated exactly the same problem. Are there different shaped rear swaybars for the 1990 C4?
The car still understeers, perhaps even more now that the strutbrace has stiffened up the front while the rear remains unchanged due to the swaybar issue. The ride is firm but body roll is unchanged. The shortshift and breaklines are great and so are the looks of the lowered car.
I'd appreciate any good advice on how to solve the rear swaybar issue!
Ciao,
Johannes E.
<img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
06-24-2002, 10:39 PM
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I replaced my rear sway bar recently. My C4 has a production date of 9/26/90, so that's prior to the suspension revision resulting from the cab introduction and the same as yours. I purchased an adjustable 22mm bar by The Racers Group (TRG) from <a href="http://www.rennsportsystems.com/~porsche/" target="_blank">RennsportSystems</a> in Portland, Oregon. You can also forward questions by e-mail or call them for additional information. All the information is on their website.
And no, I am not affiliated with RennsportSystems--just a satisfied customer.
Did you also widen the front tires to 225's? Without more rubber up front, the improvements will not be as great.
And no, I am not affiliated with RennsportSystems--just a satisfied customer.
Did you also widen the front tires to 225's? Without more rubber up front, the improvements will not be as great.
06-25-2002, 01:53 AM
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Hey,
I should add that the original swaybar overall length is 880mm while the received FVD part was 942mm. Any input is appreciated!
Ciao,
Johannes E.
I should add that the original swaybar overall length is 880mm while the received FVD part was 942mm. Any input is appreciated!
Ciao,
Johannes E.
06-25-2002, 03:42 AM
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I'm not affliated with Rennsport Systems either and I'm just an UN-satisfied customer. There is no "them" or "their" by the way. It's one person, running the "business" out of a home. "Work" is subbed out to another shop, that "they" pretend to own. You can just buy TRG's products direct from The Racer's Group, which sends more money Kevin's way besides.
06-25-2002, 04:47 AM
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Dear Johannes,
I would wait until you get the rear sway bar sorted out first. I always recommend the 1990 C2 21mm rear sway bar anyway. I cannot imagine you are gettign the same amount of body roll but hey I do not have your C4 to drive. The rear sway bar will make a huge difference when it is installed. You will also need to look at your wheel and tyre combinations as well. I also think the FVD kit uses Heavy Duty Bilsteins which I am not a great fan of. The EIBACH springs used in this kit need to be looked at as well I think. I personally do not use these EIBACHs I use the EIBACH 964RS spring, or teeth rattlers,
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
I would wait until you get the rear sway bar sorted out first. I always recommend the 1990 C2 21mm rear sway bar anyway. I cannot imagine you are gettign the same amount of body roll but hey I do not have your C4 to drive. The rear sway bar will make a huge difference when it is installed. You will also need to look at your wheel and tyre combinations as well. I also think the FVD kit uses Heavy Duty Bilsteins which I am not a great fan of. The EIBACH springs used in this kit need to be looked at as well I think. I personally do not use these EIBACHs I use the EIBACH 964RS spring, or teeth rattlers,
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
06-25-2002, 05:12 AM
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Hi Adrian and all,
I reckon the rear swaybar is the problem here. With the strutbrace up front, the balance is affected in a negative way and once the rear swaybar is fitted, the balance should be more neutral.
Still, does anyone of you have any experience with different sized/shaped swaybars for 964 C4/C2? My car is standard body 1990 C4 production date 89/07. As I explained, the FVD part that was ordered did not fit. Am I better off just ordering a 1990 C2 21mm swaybar?
THKS
Johannes
I reckon the rear swaybar is the problem here. With the strutbrace up front, the balance is affected in a negative way and once the rear swaybar is fitted, the balance should be more neutral.
Still, does anyone of you have any experience with different sized/shaped swaybars for 964 C4/C2? My car is standard body 1990 C4 production date 89/07. As I explained, the FVD part that was ordered did not fit. Am I better off just ordering a 1990 C2 21mm swaybar?
THKS
Johannes
06-25-2002, 05:31 AM
#7
Race Car
Johannes, FWIW - I use the Performance Products hollow front 25.4mm swaybar...with hose clamps inside and outside of the swaybar bushings...and a couple of washers to space out the bar clamps.
WHY? ...you ask?
Because I was just sent the freakin' bar and bushings, NO new bar clamps...so I had to use the originals that were for an 18-19mm?? and if tightened down with no washers in there, the bar would NOT rotate and the suspension would bind...it took me quite awhile to figure out what the problem was with the car's handling...but once I did - wallah!
On the rear, I used the Weltmeister 22mm adjustable bar, it came with everything needed to mount it, new droplinks, etc. - but again, NO new bar clamps...so when I spaced out the front clamps, I did so on the rear as well.
In retrospect, I should've returned the front bar to Performance...but I got it to work well now.
They NEVER answered the emails I sent, with pics, of another problem I had with the bar "scooting" over to the Driver's side of the vehicle...making the drop links situated like /_____/ and the fact that the bushings were clamped on so hard wouldn't allow the bar to return to center.
So, after much deliberation, and the decision to not work Performance Products over on this issue, I ordered up a tub of swaybar bushing grease and disassembled everything, cleaning up the bushings and placing spacers underneath the nuts that hold the clamps down...so the bar can relatively move freely when clamped down to spec.
Again, I did the same on the rear.
After reading up on a few swaybar installs that Bill G. and others have performed - I could probably order up the correct sized barclamps?? I dunno, but will worry about it another day.
What I eventually wound up with was an extremely responsive 964 that performed consistently, track event after track event.
BEFORE figuring out what was wrong, there was quite a bit of heartache!!! <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />
SO, my point for rambling on and on...these are NOT just "bolt on" items, and there doesn't seem to be a good "cook book" for such mods on the 964, I just took several bits of advice given to me by club racers, etc. and made a decision.
On the TRG rear bar, I've been advised, by TRG themselves to use the 19mm bar, as they have had fitment issues with the 22mm model...maybe they've sorted that out in the last 10months since I spoke to them at the club race last August, in Wisconsin.
Talk to a few suppliers and get their advice. I had NO issues with the Weltmeister 22mm rear swaybar, sold by PP, except that I really needed to purchase the correct sized barclamps - which they should've included, or made me aware of. Good thing your front bar fits well. Hopefully it can rotate properly or your steering will feel goofy and inconsistent - check that out.
Your front strut brace shouldn't do much to cause the oversteer sensation you say you're experiencing...it just stiffens up the strut towers...you likely have your front swaybar adjusted up too tight, bring the adjustment BACK one notch towards the bar ends if you have the common 4/5-hole adjustable.
Good luck, let us know what you find...you might want to wait on adjusting the front bar until you get a rear one in - then things will come together more sensibly.
WHY? ...you ask?
Because I was just sent the freakin' bar and bushings, NO new bar clamps...so I had to use the originals that were for an 18-19mm?? and if tightened down with no washers in there, the bar would NOT rotate and the suspension would bind...it took me quite awhile to figure out what the problem was with the car's handling...but once I did - wallah!
On the rear, I used the Weltmeister 22mm adjustable bar, it came with everything needed to mount it, new droplinks, etc. - but again, NO new bar clamps...so when I spaced out the front clamps, I did so on the rear as well.
In retrospect, I should've returned the front bar to Performance...but I got it to work well now.
They NEVER answered the emails I sent, with pics, of another problem I had with the bar "scooting" over to the Driver's side of the vehicle...making the drop links situated like /_____/ and the fact that the bushings were clamped on so hard wouldn't allow the bar to return to center.
So, after much deliberation, and the decision to not work Performance Products over on this issue, I ordered up a tub of swaybar bushing grease and disassembled everything, cleaning up the bushings and placing spacers underneath the nuts that hold the clamps down...so the bar can relatively move freely when clamped down to spec.
Again, I did the same on the rear.
After reading up on a few swaybar installs that Bill G. and others have performed - I could probably order up the correct sized barclamps?? I dunno, but will worry about it another day.
What I eventually wound up with was an extremely responsive 964 that performed consistently, track event after track event.
BEFORE figuring out what was wrong, there was quite a bit of heartache!!! <img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />
SO, my point for rambling on and on...these are NOT just "bolt on" items, and there doesn't seem to be a good "cook book" for such mods on the 964, I just took several bits of advice given to me by club racers, etc. and made a decision.
On the TRG rear bar, I've been advised, by TRG themselves to use the 19mm bar, as they have had fitment issues with the 22mm model...maybe they've sorted that out in the last 10months since I spoke to them at the club race last August, in Wisconsin.
Talk to a few suppliers and get their advice. I had NO issues with the Weltmeister 22mm rear swaybar, sold by PP, except that I really needed to purchase the correct sized barclamps - which they should've included, or made me aware of. Good thing your front bar fits well. Hopefully it can rotate properly or your steering will feel goofy and inconsistent - check that out.
Your front strut brace shouldn't do much to cause the oversteer sensation you say you're experiencing...it just stiffens up the strut towers...you likely have your front swaybar adjusted up too tight, bring the adjustment BACK one notch towards the bar ends if you have the common 4/5-hole adjustable.
Good luck, let us know what you find...you might want to wait on adjusting the front bar until you get a rear one in - then things will come together more sensibly.
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06-25-2002, 05:37 AM
#8
[quote]Originally posted by Adrian:
<strong>Dear Johannes,
I would wait until you get the rear sway bar sorted out first. I always recommend the 1990 C2 21mm rear sway bar anyway. I cannot imagine you are gettign the same amount of body roll but hey I do not have your C4 to drive. The rear sway bar will make a huge difference when it is installed. You will also need to look at your wheel and tyre combinations as well. I also think the FVD kit uses Heavy Duty Bilsteins which I am not a great fan of. The EIBACH springs used in this kit need to be looked at as well I think. I personally do not use these EIBACHs I use the EIBACH 964RS spring, or teeth rattlers,
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4</strong><hr></blockquote>
Adrian, last time I spoke to FVD - I asked them to give me the part nos. for the Bilstein shocks they use. I compared them to the Bilstein brochure and the shocks were actually B6's....mind you bearing in mind the number of changes that may have taken place in the last 2 month, needless to say I would check again on purchase.
p.s. I am now leaning towards the Roock kit. I am pathetic. It's only money....My kingdom for a decision!
Christer
<strong>Dear Johannes,
I would wait until you get the rear sway bar sorted out first. I always recommend the 1990 C2 21mm rear sway bar anyway. I cannot imagine you are gettign the same amount of body roll but hey I do not have your C4 to drive. The rear sway bar will make a huge difference when it is installed. You will also need to look at your wheel and tyre combinations as well. I also think the FVD kit uses Heavy Duty Bilsteins which I am not a great fan of. The EIBACH springs used in this kit need to be looked at as well I think. I personally do not use these EIBACHs I use the EIBACH 964RS spring, or teeth rattlers,
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4</strong><hr></blockquote>
Adrian, last time I spoke to FVD - I asked them to give me the part nos. for the Bilstein shocks they use. I compared them to the Bilstein brochure and the shocks were actually B6's....mind you bearing in mind the number of changes that may have taken place in the last 2 month, needless to say I would check again on purchase.
p.s. I am now leaning towards the Roock kit. I am pathetic. It's only money....My kingdom for a decision!
Christer
06-25-2002, 07:06 AM
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Dear Christer,
There has certainly been some confusion on the exact contents of the FVD kit before. I know somebody else that ran into the same scenario. The only way to be sure is to take the actual part number for the actual parts used and cross check it.
I did look at all this before but so much has happened since then I cannot remember the outcome.
The should be a parts list with the kit so maybe Johannes could look this up and post the part numbers. I also think there is more than one kit version as well.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
There has certainly been some confusion on the exact contents of the FVD kit before. I know somebody else that ran into the same scenario. The only way to be sure is to take the actual part number for the actual parts used and cross check it.
I did look at all this before but so much has happened since then I cannot remember the outcome.
The should be a parts list with the kit so maybe Johannes could look this up and post the part numbers. I also think there is more than one kit version as well.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
06-25-2002, 07:18 AM
#11
Adrian
Totally agree. Lots of different parts/kits - that's what I meant when I said it has maybe changed since 2 months ago. Add that to the stories about Bilstein only supplying shocks to H&R and the fact that the UK distributor for FVD was flogging the H&R coilovers at the same price as the Bilstein/Eibach kit....who knows? As you say, the only way to be sure is to check the actual part nos. like I did 2 months ago, when you actually buy...what did happen about that Bilstein / H&R exclusive supply story anyway?
Christer
Totally agree. Lots of different parts/kits - that's what I meant when I said it has maybe changed since 2 months ago. Add that to the stories about Bilstein only supplying shocks to H&R and the fact that the UK distributor for FVD was flogging the H&R coilovers at the same price as the Bilstein/Eibach kit....who knows? As you say, the only way to be sure is to check the actual part nos. like I did 2 months ago, when you actually buy...what did happen about that Bilstein / H&R exclusive supply story anyway?
Christer
06-25-2002, 01:27 PM
#12
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The 21 mm bar from a 90 C-2 (or was it a 91?) fit my C-4 perfectly. Used the same caps, but since the bar was thicker, it did need the bushings with the larger opening.
06-26-2002, 08:41 AM
#13
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1990 Horst and regardless of the sway bar you always use new rubbers. Only came on the 1990 C2 manual and I have no idea why but I am happy because it works like a treat on the 1989 C4,
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
06-27-2002, 03:43 PM
#14
Johannes,
I have a set of AJ-USA adjustable stabilizer bars on my Turbo 3.6, which came with retaining collars and modified droplinks for the front and new drop links for the rear.
They bars fit well, with only minor modifications to the front collars to clear the subframe.
The rear drop links are somewhat light duty and I intend to upgrade them with something of a heavier construction. While they function, the links mountings are inadequate and they squeak and rattle. Definately not up to the quality of the bars.
The bars themselves are well made and have the same attachment locations, although the rear bar has a larger radius at the bend than the stock bar.
I have 25/23mm bars on my Turbo, but they do make a bar for the C2 also.
Check out thier web site.
Mike Behrman
I have a set of AJ-USA adjustable stabilizer bars on my Turbo 3.6, which came with retaining collars and modified droplinks for the front and new drop links for the rear.
They bars fit well, with only minor modifications to the front collars to clear the subframe.
The rear drop links are somewhat light duty and I intend to upgrade them with something of a heavier construction. While they function, the links mountings are inadequate and they squeak and rattle. Definately not up to the quality of the bars.
The bars themselves are well made and have the same attachment locations, although the rear bar has a larger radius at the bend than the stock bar.
I have 25/23mm bars on my Turbo, but they do make a bar for the C2 also.
Check out thier web site.
Mike Behrman
07-14-2002, 02:42 PM
#15
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Hi again,
Finally got a 21mm rear stabilizer fitted but with little improvement. The car feels stiffer up front, the rear still rolls more than the front and the springs in the front seem stiffer.
The part no. of the front Bilstein shocks is
F4-V36-0385-HO and the rear is F4-B46-1735-HO if this makes any sense to any one!?
I don't know what to do to get it 100% balanced.
Ciao,
Johannes E.
<img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />
Finally got a 21mm rear stabilizer fitted but with little improvement. The car feels stiffer up front, the rear still rolls more than the front and the springs in the front seem stiffer.
The part no. of the front Bilstein shocks is
F4-V36-0385-HO and the rear is F4-B46-1735-HO if this makes any sense to any one!?
I don't know what to do to get it 100% balanced.
Ciao,
Johannes E.
<img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />