UNICHIP experience
06-24-2002, 10:41 AM
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UNICHIP experience
Has anyone had an experience with a UNICHIP fitted to their car?
See <a href="http://www.dastek.co.za" target="_blank">www.dastek.co.za</a>
I am thinking about having this done to get a bit more from the K&N + sports exhaust already fitted. Should be a lot better than an off the shelf chip.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
See <a href="http://www.dastek.co.za" target="_blank">www.dastek.co.za</a>
I am thinking about having this done to get a bit more from the K&N + sports exhaust already fitted. Should be a lot better than an off the shelf chip.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
06-24-2002, 11:35 AM
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I had the Unichip installed here in the States by The Racers Group.
They had some problems and fried my ECU. After another box was installed they could only adjust the fuel delivery and not the timing but still claimed a 12hp increase. The car had been running very rich due to the 'custom' chip previously installed.
It sounds like a good way to tune a car but I didn't have a good experience.
Allan
'93RSA 3.8
They had some problems and fried my ECU. After another box was installed they could only adjust the fuel delivery and not the timing but still claimed a 12hp increase. The car had been running very rich due to the 'custom' chip previously installed.
It sounds like a good way to tune a car but I didn't have a good experience.
Allan
'93RSA 3.8
06-24-2002, 12:36 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Christer:
<strong>Steve
I believe this is the type of chip AMD supply. Have you spoken to Geoff there?
Christer</strong><hr></blockquote>
Already spoken to Geoff and he does not supply the UNICHIP. What he does do that most chip suppliers don't he tweeks the chip from the base config to your car. Therefor you are still limited by the original ECU old processing power. The UNICHIP is a modern more powerful ECU which runs piggyback with the original ECU. This should give you nearly all the of benifits of a MOTEC but with out the cost and other problems.
<strong>Steve
I believe this is the type of chip AMD supply. Have you spoken to Geoff there?
Christer</strong><hr></blockquote>
Already spoken to Geoff and he does not supply the UNICHIP. What he does do that most chip suppliers don't he tweeks the chip from the base config to your car. Therefor you are still limited by the original ECU old processing power. The UNICHIP is a modern more powerful ECU which runs piggyback with the original ECU. This should give you nearly all the of benifits of a MOTEC but with out the cost and other problems.
06-24-2002, 03:18 PM
#6
Although I am by no means an expert on this kind of stuff, I'm pretty sure that "processing power" is not important. The advantage with the UniChip is that the installer, (Racer's Group) custom tunes it on a dyno on your particular car. A chip is usually developed on just one or a few cars simular to yours.
Unfortunately I have no experince with the UniChip, but would like to hear about it and see dyno graphs of people that have had it installed.
Unfortunately I have no experince with the UniChip, but would like to hear about it and see dyno graphs of people that have had it installed.
06-24-2002, 03:54 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by ValveFloat:
<strong>Although I am by no means an expert on this kind of stuff, I'm pretty sure that "processing power" is not important.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As I understand it the more processing power the more mapping points you can have and thus the better the map is. Better map == more power + better fuel comsumption.
If the ECU did not make any difference MOTEC etc would be out of business.
<strong>Although I am by no means an expert on this kind of stuff, I'm pretty sure that "processing power" is not important.</strong><hr></blockquote>
As I understand it the more processing power the more mapping points you can have and thus the better the map is. Better map == more power + better fuel comsumption.
If the ECU did not make any difference MOTEC etc would be out of business.
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06-25-2002, 04:15 AM
#8
[quote]Originally posted by SteveW@stig:
<strong>
Already spoken to Geoff and he does not supply the UNICHIP. What he does do that most chip suppliers don't he tweeks the chip from the base config to your car. Therefor you are still limited by the original ECU old processing power. The UNICHIP is a modern more powerful ECU which runs piggyback with the original ECU. This should give you nearly all the of benifits of a MOTEC but with out the cost and other problems.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<strong>
Already spoken to Geoff and he does not supply the UNICHIP. What he does do that most chip suppliers don't he tweeks the chip from the base config to your car. Therefor you are still limited by the original ECU old processing power. The UNICHIP is a modern more powerful ECU which runs piggyback with the original ECU. This should give you nearly all the of benifits of a MOTEC but with out the cost and other problems.</strong><hr></blockquote>
06-25-2002, 04:22 AM
#9
DMEs and other engine controllers, unless they are VERY sophisticated by early '90s standards run in what I call a linear mode. By that, I mean you have a single processor running a single process in linear fashion, handling one task at time (like monitoring the output of an O2 sensor, then the air flow sensor, etc. etc.). A fair number of limitations can be put on the CPU processing by such things as the interface hardware connected to the CPU, the speed of the RAM, clock speeds, etc. etc. Putting a faster CPU in a system can speed up the system if the system is somewhat flexible, but on ancient systems like those found on the 964 this is unlikely (I have no schematics of the DME so I really can't comment with a high degree of accuracy on such limitations). If someone is replacing an existing DME with one with an overhauled board that can fully support a higher speed chip, I would see no reason why much higher performance couldn't be achieved, and I think it would put an end to some of the problems that surface when people replace the standard flywheel with a light weight flywheel.
What you CAN do with a piggy back system or a faster chip, if integrated properly, is develop more complicated programs that are better capable than their previous counterparts to make better adjustments to the parameters the CPU is monitoring. The limitations will often rely on the hardware that supports the chip.
Believe it or not, some of the most sophisticated circuitry for engine control is found on "big rigs" for trucking. The system I work on uses a multitasking RTOS that continually monitors the engine parameters of such vehicles and periodically transmits a status report of the data via satellite or terrestrial networks (if cellular communications are available) to control centers that can red flag a problem developing on the truck before it becomes a flat out failure. None of this is out of the realm of possibility for a Porsche, but it ain't cheap either
It would be interesting to compare the capabilities of Porsche's newer systems with those like the 964 to see how much they've changed over the years.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
What you CAN do with a piggy back system or a faster chip, if integrated properly, is develop more complicated programs that are better capable than their previous counterparts to make better adjustments to the parameters the CPU is monitoring. The limitations will often rely on the hardware that supports the chip.
Believe it or not, some of the most sophisticated circuitry for engine control is found on "big rigs" for trucking. The system I work on uses a multitasking RTOS that continually monitors the engine parameters of such vehicles and periodically transmits a status report of the data via satellite or terrestrial networks (if cellular communications are available) to control centers that can red flag a problem developing on the truck before it becomes a flat out failure. None of this is out of the realm of possibility for a Porsche, but it ain't cheap either
It would be interesting to compare the capabilities of Porsche's newer systems with those like the 964 to see how much they've changed over the years.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
06-25-2002, 04:23 AM
#10
[quote]Originally posted by SteveW@stig:
<strong>
As I understand it the more processing power the more mapping points you can have and thus the better the map is. Better map == more power + better fuel comsumption.
If the ECU did not make any difference MOTEC etc would be out of business.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not quite sure what happened at my last attempt to post....
Steve, it will be quite interesting to see what Unichip can do. How much does the chip cost? I am a firm believer in the saying 'you get what you pay for' - at least to a point.
I guess the only way to see if the UNichip can give the same results as Motec is to give them a car to test on. Perhaps they would be interested in a guineapig?
I am sceptical, but will keep an open mind.
<strong>
As I understand it the more processing power the more mapping points you can have and thus the better the map is. Better map == more power + better fuel comsumption.
If the ECU did not make any difference MOTEC etc would be out of business.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not quite sure what happened at my last attempt to post....
Steve, it will be quite interesting to see what Unichip can do. How much does the chip cost? I am a firm believer in the saying 'you get what you pay for' - at least to a point.
I guess the only way to see if the UNichip can give the same results as Motec is to give them a car to test on. Perhaps they would be interested in a guineapig?
I am sceptical, but will keep an open mind.
06-25-2002, 05:28 AM
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The price is about GBP400 - 500 +VAT for install and set up. The price can vary a bit depending on how much dyno time is needed. Turbo cars are more expensive as they require more dyno time and an additional module for boost control GBP120 +VAT.
As the device come from South Africa it is very popular in the touring car racing in the Southern Hemisphere and the race results show that it works as well as the MOTEC. The BIG advantage with the UNICHIP apart from cost is the ease of installation. You have to remember that on the 964 and other cars that the ECU does more than just control the engine. So if you replace the engine control part with MOTEC you still need the old Bosch unit for the other functions, quite an install nightmare and prone to all sorts of problems.
I think I will give it a go and see what we can get. The good thing is that you can easily rip it out again and the system is back to normal. I will keep you guys posted.
As the device come from South Africa it is very popular in the touring car racing in the Southern Hemisphere and the race results show that it works as well as the MOTEC. The BIG advantage with the UNICHIP apart from cost is the ease of installation. You have to remember that on the 964 and other cars that the ECU does more than just control the engine. So if you replace the engine control part with MOTEC you still need the old Bosch unit for the other functions, quite an install nightmare and prone to all sorts of problems.
I think I will give it a go and see what we can get. The good thing is that you can easily rip it out again and the system is back to normal. I will keep you guys posted.
06-25-2002, 05:41 AM
#13
Steve
If it works as well as the Motec system, you will need bigger injectors to get good gains. This is key as testing with the Motec has shown that once the M48 is installed, on the rolling road the engine runs lean for about 90% of the time. The bigger injectors are key.
Anyway, I would be interested in seeing some results. Will you be able to get before and after figures?
Christer
If it works as well as the Motec system, you will need bigger injectors to get good gains. This is key as testing with the Motec has shown that once the M48 is installed, on the rolling road the engine runs lean for about 90% of the time. The bigger injectors are key.
Anyway, I would be interested in seeing some results. Will you be able to get before and after figures?
Christer
06-25-2002, 07:00 AM
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Dear Steve,
Would you expand a little more on your statement about the 964 ECU "other functions".
Your statement about replacing them is correct but I feel the explanation why is a little vague. I would like to know what you mean exactly before answering in more detail.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
Would you expand a little more on your statement about the 964 ECU "other functions".
Your statement about replacing them is correct but I feel the explanation why is a little vague. I would like to know what you mean exactly before answering in more detail.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
06-25-2002, 09:43 AM
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I would suggest thinking long and hard before going for an aftermarket replacement ECU for a road car, and then not doing it.
Whilst getting a basic ignition and injection map running on a replacement ECU (e.g. the MOTEC) is a relatively quick process, I really doubt that the vendors/installers of such systems can get those maps fully optimised without a proper engine dyno, and even then they would not be able to get part throttle mapping done properly as the dyno inertia is too high.
To optimise most parameters you need to hold the engine at the load/speed point you are mapping and sweep your ignition angle, injection pulse width and injection phasing to find the best settings - how can that be done on a rolling road?
Once those basics are sorted out the really tricky mapping starts, i.e. the mapping at small throttle openings that can't be done on the dyno, the transient fuelling (accel enrichment, decel enleanment, overrun fuel cutoff and reinstatement), cold start across all the temperatures the car might experience.....all this stuff takes months and thousands of miles for car manufacturers, who can afford to wear out dozens of engines in the process and have the benefit of climate controlled test chambers and test cars running everywhere from the arctic circle to the desert. How can a tuner do the job in a few hours on a rolling road?
Racing systems have a fairly easy life in many respects as the ambient temperature range the cars/engines run in is relatively narrow and the behaviour of the car at small throttle openings is of little or no interest to the driver. Whilst more efficient injector drive stages in a competition control unit might extend the linear dynamic range of your injectors, what good is that if the mapping cannot be sorted out at the small throttle openings that require those smaller pulse widths? An aftermarket control unit could well improve performance under large throttle openings and "average" environmental conditions, but the downside will almost certainly be a significant loss of driveability and refinemnt (e.g. having the car always start on a winter's morning!). In addition the aftermarket unit may not even have some of the control functions a road car requires, e.g. running the EGR valve. Such things, especially those associated with emissions, are of no concern for racing so the units that are designed with racing in mind do not need to cater for them.
The benefit of units like the UNICHIP (or of modifying the basic ignition/injection maps of the original ECU) is that they completely sidestep all the awkward stuf that the original control unit continues to deal with, and only make changes where they have a reasonable chance of producing a beneficial result.
Whilst getting a basic ignition and injection map running on a replacement ECU (e.g. the MOTEC) is a relatively quick process, I really doubt that the vendors/installers of such systems can get those maps fully optimised without a proper engine dyno, and even then they would not be able to get part throttle mapping done properly as the dyno inertia is too high.
To optimise most parameters you need to hold the engine at the load/speed point you are mapping and sweep your ignition angle, injection pulse width and injection phasing to find the best settings - how can that be done on a rolling road?
Once those basics are sorted out the really tricky mapping starts, i.e. the mapping at small throttle openings that can't be done on the dyno, the transient fuelling (accel enrichment, decel enleanment, overrun fuel cutoff and reinstatement), cold start across all the temperatures the car might experience.....all this stuff takes months and thousands of miles for car manufacturers, who can afford to wear out dozens of engines in the process and have the benefit of climate controlled test chambers and test cars running everywhere from the arctic circle to the desert. How can a tuner do the job in a few hours on a rolling road?
Racing systems have a fairly easy life in many respects as the ambient temperature range the cars/engines run in is relatively narrow and the behaviour of the car at small throttle openings is of little or no interest to the driver. Whilst more efficient injector drive stages in a competition control unit might extend the linear dynamic range of your injectors, what good is that if the mapping cannot be sorted out at the small throttle openings that require those smaller pulse widths? An aftermarket control unit could well improve performance under large throttle openings and "average" environmental conditions, but the downside will almost certainly be a significant loss of driveability and refinemnt (e.g. having the car always start on a winter's morning!). In addition the aftermarket unit may not even have some of the control functions a road car requires, e.g. running the EGR valve. Such things, especially those associated with emissions, are of no concern for racing so the units that are designed with racing in mind do not need to cater for them.
The benefit of units like the UNICHIP (or of modifying the basic ignition/injection maps of the original ECU) is that they completely sidestep all the awkward stuf that the original control unit continues to deal with, and only make changes where they have a reasonable chance of producing a beneficial result.