ltc

Adrian,
I have a 92 Euro Cup car and don't exhibit any issues with idle and a LWF.
I'm assuming the Euro Cup car is similar to the RS in this regard?

Tom W

Steve: Thanks for the clarification on the programming.

Folks should also know that we talked about the stalling issues quite a bit before I bought the kit from you (and the chip). My 993 was one of the ones where stalling was a significant issue. As Steve says, other have made the change with almost no issues at all. If you make this modification to your car, you should be prepared for the worst case - significant stalling.

I also completely concur with Adrian - If you are not prepared to deal with stalling issues, don't do it to your street car. There is no guarantee that you will be able to eliminate the problem. Given the difference in how one drives on the track compared to the street, it isn't a significant issue for a track car (although it's a pain when your car stalls if you don't pay attention to your shifting as you enter the pits). Yes, your car might accelerate a bit faster in 1st and 2nd gear, but the benefit diminishes rapidly as you move up through the gears. Only you can decide if the PITA stalling is worth a bit faster acceleration.

Adrian

Dear Lewis,
The answer is no. You have a different software programming for a start. Same part number DME but it should say Carrera Cup on the outside. The Cup car is a pure racing car.
By the way I have driven a few Cup cars 964 through to 996 and they are dead easy to stall just like any other race car
Ciao,
Adrian.

Kismet

Jason

I'm not particularly technical, but reading this thread through (and giggling) I think the message is:

Go back to a standard DMF.

Then if you really want to improve the performance of your car:

1 Buy and read Adrian's book;
2 Get advice from this forum as to reputable suppliers in your area.

If you really have money to chuck away, you can help fund my divorce.

CraigyB

This might sound a bit daft, but what is wrong with the dmf anyway ?
A typical these cars aren't especially poor on the pick up by any standards

Dunasso

CRAIG,

Let's face it, alot of us have had or are having problems with our dual mass flywheels. The reason? They are getting old and some (like mine) are falling apart. I think that like most other 964 owners, I was looking for an improvement over the stock flywheel. A little more umph, I guess, for the money I was about to shell out. Replacing the DMF was compairable to the cost of a whole LWF kit.

Maybe the lure of performance gains for the money of a replacement part justifies the debate, I don't know. But what I do know is that sense the LWF install on my 964 I've had no drivability problems, or undesirable stall issues.

Duncan

tonytaylor

Ignoring the reliability of the earlier Freudenberg flwheels, then for a road car - nothing! The improved refinement is a major plus.

For a track car the slower response to throttle inpulse is a liability.

Had an ex-F1 driver stall mine twice on Thurs, so you and I in good company

jagerocks

To all :
The car came like this with the single RS light flywheel, No worries the whole thing is a learning experince.

Jason

Adrian

Dear Jason,
Yes and that is what makes the whole situation worse for you. My advice remains the same however. The 750 bucks somebody offered to charge you would go a long way to get rid of this system and replace it with something more suitable for your 964.
I do also realise that you cannot even drive this car at the moment which does suggest a more serious problem.
That is why I advised reinstalling a standard chip to get the car back to a status that is known and then try to find out why the thing just will not run.
You see I suspect the PO did a whole bunch of things that have already been mentioned in this thread and has basically screwed the car. The only way is to work backwards find out what has been done and correct it.
This is hard this is frustrating and maybe you will give up like the PO and pass it on.
My first guess is that the idle microswitch is not being made but there has been no feedback from yourself of any troubleshooting and inspections that you have carried out.
You will also find to your frustration that I do not advocate spending your money nor taking your money.
I have been doing this for a very long time and I know there is much you can do yourself without spending anymore money. However you never hear from me fixes which involve adjusting over or masking the problem nor fixes from me that hide problems.
There are no magical solutions no "Demon Tweaks" just hard graft, get hands dirty, get down and fix it properly.
Ciao,
Adrian.

Michael Gibney

Wow, long thread = big issue for a lot of us.

Back in the mid seventies australian cars had similar problems due to anti smog regulations, the "systems" the local manufacturers patched on to import cars caused a lot of them to stall because the carburation system and all of the anti smog "junk" could not get the correct mixture to the engine as it was slipped out of gear coming up to traffic lights, so the local industry, and probably everywhere else, installed a little damper unit on the throttle bodies to slow down the last little bit of the throttle body closure, to give the carburettor time to "catch up".

So, can any modern guru come up with a damper to do the same job for our 964's with lightweight flywheels, and given the availability of electronics it could be "controlled" by an electric unit that allows it to only work when the clutch ids depressed, perhaps using the same wire from the clutch that the cruise control uses?

The little electric magnetic servo used on older toyotas to speed up the idle when the air con is switched on would be a good and easily available place to start.

Any trhoughts?

Regards,

Michael Gibney

Adrian

Dear Michael,
There are four reasons why this will never be done.
1/. You cannot touch the throttle system without going through a certification process. This would require TÜV approval in Germany as your starting point.
2/. Legal liability (remember Audi in the USA circa 1987).
3/. Cost would be enormous for the research and development.
4/. Nobody would pay the money that would have to be charged. LWF installations are a tiny proportion of total numbers.
Just ask Sportec who do such things. They invent something it is really wonderful but nobody buys it because it is too expensive.
People tell me that my book is too expensive and they will wait until they can get it for 10 bucks.
None of the projects that were started in the 1990s by third parties for the 964 have ever come to anything because there is no business case for them.
The numbers simply do not add up.
Ciao,
Adrian.

Michael Gibney

Dear Adrian,

You are of course correct but that does not change the basic premise of the thought I put forward being, would it work?

Additionally some further points that come to mind.....

1. Imagine the cars we would have if accountants were not invloved, or perhaps that is an inherant problem with our 964's as was indicated by the drop in price for the new 993?

2. Ask the fellow who is rebuilding his 964 out of lightweight materials, he knows about creativity and I wionder what his insurance Co thinks.

3. The thought was for a home fix not to have someone do the sums and mass produce them.

4. Here in Australia we do not have the issues with "regulation" you seem to have, benefit of a low population density.

5. I was happy to pay the price for your book, I think it was fair value, there are some who value it so highly they would pay double and as you said some who say 10 dollars is enough, that is evidence of us all being different - nothing more.

6. As 964's get older the modification of them will become more home grown, the result of market forces, economics and more enthusiast owners. So we will get more non-approved modifications and more "outlaw" type custom jobs. Not to my taste but it will happen.

6. The fun of ownership for some of us is having a go at what cannot or should not be done, it is a spirit of adventurisim that makes some people install a lightweidght flywheel and clutch and then fight to acheive a workable outcome, some will succeed, some will fail, the nature of human endevour. Let's see if someone picks up on the idea or shows us how it will not work.

The point to be distilled from all of the above is that good technical advice is invaluable and is always greatly appreciated and those who give valuable time to help those who con only ever say thanks by way of a script on a screen are to be admired and honoured, having said that, forget legislation, forget insurance and forget developement teams in white coats, will it work?

Regards,

Michael Gibney.

Adrian

Dear Michael,
I am afraid I inhabit a world of reality.
I work at helping people with what we have not what we don't have.
To answer your question my answer would be "no".
The 964 throttle body and cable system is not compatible with a high speed servo motor that would be needed for such a job.
Another point.
Australia has more regulations than most in the world.
I am Australian and to bring a GT-2 back to Australia I have to prove 62 points of Australian Compliance.
Swiss compliance is a breeze. If the TÜV approve it no real problems. Not in Australia.
I contacted customs and asked about bringing a small car collection home to set up a little museum. Answer "NO". We are allowed one car per adult.
One reason we moved overseas was to get away from "Australian regulations" which stiffled business and 13 years later little has changed. Little rant over

This forum is designed to advise and help people. Most time is spent helping people with problems. I have no problem what people do with their money.
If people feel that fitting LWFs is somehow pioneering then fine.
Porsche issued a warning in 1989 about fitting LWFs to the C4 and C2 and people still to this day ignore this.
Fine but when the pioneers run into trouble nobody here can genuinely help fix their stalling issues and it not my place to spend their money trying either.
My advice is do not be a pioneer spend your hard earned money on something that works or if you do fit a LWF live with it.
There has been more than enough information published since 1989 saying don't do it
My own data collection dating back to 1998 says that only 1 in 4 people (25%) claim the LWF works no problem and I bet none of these claimants have standard 964s with just a RS LWF and spring centred clutch fitted
The 964 Carrera RS is not a standard car nor is the Carrera Cup
Ciao,
Adrian.

agentpennypacker

When we are saying "LWF", what is the actual weight? I've heard of a few different weights out there...

Adrian

12lbs,
Ciao,
Adrian.