Ragin' Bajan

I've been told that the 964 is not as torsionally rigid as earlier (or later) 911's. As a result, things like track days
(eg hitting the corner bumps) will eventually take their toll.
No doubt there is some abuse on the car, but my question to all
you who have tracked your 964's for any significant time is: can the car take it? It was suggested that if I was going to track it long-term,
a roll cage would be a good idea to stiffen up the body.
I'd really rather avoid anything that has to do with drilling,
and certainly as my car is dual purpose I don't want the inconvenience of a cage.

Assuming it's true about the 964 body's rigidity, anyone have
an idea of what a 'reasonable' amount of track days per year would be? I realize this is a very difficult question since there are factors like track configuration, driving style etc, but as I will probably do less than 10 events a year, it would
be comforting to hear a number like "anything greater than 7/week", and disconcerting for "more than once a year and you might as well sell it for scrap".

Thanks for any info/corrections you can provide!

--Chris

joey bagadonuts

Good question! Permit me to add what I believe are pertinent comments.

My mechanic, who preps Club Racers, cautions me frequently about the excessive wear provided by tracking my car. He mentions the C4's weight as being a primary concern and points to the brakes and clutch as being the weak spots, but I'm not sure that's not the case for all cars.

His advice to me was to get a dedicated track car, trailer it and spare the C4 of any further abuse. Needless to say, this kind of advice has put a slight damper on my Porsche enjoyment and caused me, too, to wonder if I'm deluding myself.

From his comments, it seems a dual-purpose car is an oxymoron: the 964 cannot thrive in both environments. It needs to be set up for the track or for the street, but not somewhere in between. Keep in mind, my mechanic has been working on 911's for over 20 years, so I'm reluctant to dismiss his opinion as those of some zealot.

So is it possible to have it all? i.e. a 964 that will survive the rigors of track abuse while still being capable of shuttling you around town in reasonable comfort?

Bill Gregory

[quote]<strong> it seems a dual-purpose car is an oxymoron: the 964 cannot thrive in both environments. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I disagree. A 964 can be a very drivable daily driver and still be a competent drivers education 911. Granted, you have to want a dual purpose machine, and yes, there is some give and take. If the goal is PCA Club Racing, SCCA racing, or some other racing series, then a dual purpose 964 probably won't be as competitive as possible. However, a dual purpose 964 can certainly work. If anyone's overly concerned about it, in the US, buy a C2, upgrade the body (including NGT welds) and components to Carrera RS specs. For drivers education, I'd suggest that might be a bit overkill

Otherwise, Chris, you can put in a DAS rollbar, which does not require welding, and I like to think (hope!) it provides a bit of added torsional rigidity as it joins both sides of the body with it's cross bar. Also add a front strut brace.

On brakes, as long as you don't have a 90-91 C2, the brakes are pretty good. You should use a brake fluid with a higher boiling point, like ATE typ 200, you may want to replace the fog lamps with a kit to route cooling air to the brakes, and you can use the Seine Systems titanium brake shields to help slow the transfer of heat from the pads to the pistons to the brake fluid (I just installed a set and will see what difference they make in September). You may want to go with a more aggressive brake pad, too.

John Boggiano

I believe the RS (but not RSA) was seam welded to add stiffness.
Having said that, I track my regularly, including at the Nurburgring, and the only problem I was ever aware of was cooking the standard brakes. A change to better fluid and an upgrade to RS brakes saw that one off.

Christer

The key is balance. If I wanted a dedicated track car to conquer all it wouldn't be a 964 (or any other Porsche for that matter). If you want a daily driver that you can take to the track and have fun with then you could do a lot worse.

To be competitive, the 964 needs to be 'focussed' and this affects the every-day driveability. Just like any other car. Try driving the current Ferrari F1 car down the high street to do some shopping...

malc elliott

[quote]I've been told that the 964 is not as torsionally rigid as earlier (or later) 911's. <hr></blockquote>
Would anyone care to expand on this? I for one don't think the 964 would be less torsionally rigid than earlier 911s.
Wasn't the bodyshell extensively changed for the 964 in order to accomodate the C4's propshafts, etc?The transmission tunnel created a 'spine' which they never had before.Progress being what it is I find it hard to believe the older cars are more rigid. Later cars would be a different story however.

joey bagadonuts

Thanks, Bill, John and Pinstripes (and Ragin' for indulging me). To add to Malc's follow up questions, I was wondering if you could expand, Bill, on the Seine Systems titanium brake shields? Also, I've been using ATE Super Blue DOT 4. Would this be comparable to ATE Type 200?

Flying Finn

Joey,

I'm only able to aswer one of your question:

ATE Super Blue DOT 4 and ATE Type 200 are the same stuff except that the Super Blue has some blue dye in it.

SteveW@stig

Track driving will certainly have a higher ware rate than normal street driving may be a ratio of 50:1???

If you want a car to drive most of the time on the road and do may be 6 track days a year then I think a 964 with a few mods is just the car for the job. It is one of the reasons that I bought mine. What mods? H&R (or similar) lowering kit, strut brace, racing blue brake fluid and pagid fast road pads. Plus some minimal engine work as an option, exhaust, chip plus K&N.

If you want to track every weekend and be one of the fast boys then go build yourself a race car and use a trailer.

BTW: I have a 91 C2 with the standard brakes and provided you do not do long sessions the brakes hold out just fine with no fade or dammage. You just have to remember to do a few slow laps every 8 or so fast ones to let everything cool down. If you forget then you will have to fit new discs and pads after the event.

Irishdriver

Actually I abused the hell out of my car at Hockenheim recently (still jealous Jeff?) and the main problems were a soft brake pedal - due to over heated fluid no doubt, F*****d tyres due to my determination to always be a little bit over the limits and outside the laws of Physics, and Glazed brake pads. God, it was fun.

The other problem with such track fun is that you find out things about your car that you wouldn't find out on the road. I now know my front Suspension is past its best but it wasn't appearent in normal use on the road. Moral of this is don't blame the track for faults in your car just because they only show up on the track.

Have fun,

P.S. If you stay off the kerbs the tracks are better - i.e. gentler on the car - than most roads !!

Jim Michaels

I'm with Steve (above). If you become a track junkie, you'll be happier with a dedicated track car and trailer. For occasional tracking, the 964 works well with only a few mods, and these make it more fun for the street as well. I track my RSA about 4 times a year (driving it to and from the track), autox about 8 times a year, and drive it on the road every weekend. The previous owner used the car the same way. Tracking wears the car much more than autoxing. Obvious wear items are tires (get a set specifically for track/autox) and brakes; meaning more frequent replacement of pads, rotors, and brake fluid. You'll also catch more chips in the front end on track than anywhere else. Wear on other longer wear items such as OE shocks and clutch is less salient, at least until the time finally comes to replace them. I was somewhat reluctant to subject my first Porsche to such treatment, and thought; well, I'll just do it one time to see what it's like. Now, I don't think I could own a Porsche, or any sports car for that matter, and not at least occasionally drive it on track.

BTW, I've done very little to my car. It has a roll bar, a strut bar, wider wheels and tires, H&R springs with Bilstein shocks, and a bypass pipe for the primary muffler. It still has the OE sport seats, belts, and sway bars. With 46k miles, no internal work on engine, tranny, or clutch has been needed (knock on wood). Thus, the car can take it.

The question what's a reasonable number of track days per year is a more difficult one to answer. Even one day on track and you could no longer honestly say "never tracked" when you try to sell it (I guess it's like losing one's virginity). Some buyers will avoid any car with a history of being tracked, but I chose my car over two others that had never been tracked because I knew I was going to use the car in the same way as the PO.

SteveW@stig

I agree with the above. I could not own a sports car of any sort with out some track days. The track is the only place you can really use these cars to anywhere near what they were designed to do. I find after a track day I drive slower on the roads because I have had my fix. I know when it is time to book an other day at the track as my speed on the road starts to increase and I am longing for the speed fix again. You just can not have the same amount of fun on the road unless you are totally insane and will probably end up killing yourself and taking few others with you.

JC in NY

If you only do occasional track days I doubt there will be any problems with the chassis. However if you run very fast with sticky tires and pound the curbings you might want to make a regular inspection of the chassis joints to make sure you haven't developed any cracks or busted any spot welds. Also check the wheels and suspension parts like the uprights for cracks.

PhilW

The only reason I purchased a Porsche was to join the local PCA chapter and learn how to drive via Drivers Education. I bought a 1993 RSA after an unsuccessful search for a solid 1984-88 911. A few days after buying the car I learned of Rennlist. In the last year I've made all the upgrades Bill Gregory warns about that are needed to make the RSA a great track car <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> I'm still working on the driver.

Phil W.

Flying Finn

One opinion:

If one doesn't track his/hers Porsche, where else (except autobahns) one can drive it like it was meant to and is capable of doing?

And if one doesn't want/isn't driving it as fast as he/she dares, why buy a real sportscar anyway? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">