Julian Thompson

warmfuzzies you are right. In my opinion you are not getting anything better from your OPC - you are just paying for their greater costs and it is up to you if you want to do that to get your official dealer stamp.

They are, however, not ripping you off at the OPC becasue they need that money to keep the wheels turning and keep their staff employed and to retain that look that earned them the right to try and charge $95/hr in the first place. This is business and not a ripoff - you do have a choice - and if you want to wander in to a multi million pound building and get a courtesy car and a nice coffee and a walk around $200000 cars you have to pay the $95 per hour.

Fact is that plenty of people do see the value in this, otherwise the OPC's would be out of business.

I personally agree that your specialist would do a better job, however, but this is not the point I am making !

warmfuzzies

Agreed,

So what extra do I get for my £30/hr Audio fitting experience?

That is my point, it's not tangible, not to me anyway, and I maybe wrong here, but I think that was the point Dave was in effect asking too.

DaveK

But Julian, you are no longer comparing like with like.

Originally, we were talking about the charges an audio shop would make to fit speakers to my Porsche - compared to the charge they would make to fit them to a Ford Fiesta - or in fact, compared the the charge the same shop made to fit audio components to my mates Fiat Coupe.

You are now comparing Porsche labour rates to Ford labour rates - or Autofarm restoration rates to local garage respray rates. These are not the same things!

Of course if I wanted my car restored or I wanted a full service I would not take it to the bloke round the corner. I would take it to someone who specialises in classic car restoration or Porsche maintenance and I would happily pay the greater cost. I would not argue at all that most of us place a lot of importance on our 964s, we generally only use people for servicing / cosmetic repairs that have experience in these cars and we're generally happy to pay the extra for the quality of the work and peace of mind. But that wasn't the point I was making when I started the thread.

My original point was this :

If I did choose to use the bloke around the corner for my respray it should not cost me significantly more to get my Porsche painted by him than it would cost to get my Ford Fiesta painted by him.

Julian Thompson

I understand what you are meaning but that guy with the audio has to raise his game to fit the stuff in your car for the reasons we've talked about - the risk and potential hassle of working on that car is more so you pay more to get it done - seems fair to me.

How would you feel if I put the labour rate to £40 per hour for everyone's car, and so therefore get the guy with the Fiesta to subsidise me working on your Porsche? The guy with the Fiesta will ask why it is £20 per hour more than before and I'll say "Becasue the guys with the cars that run over on time and who cost more to service felt it was unfair that they should pay for that extra service and effort so we are getting you to pay extra to cover" ?????

Even stuff like the traders insurance is more expensive to insure the garage for risks dealing with more expensive cars - why should the Fiesta guy pay for this?

DaveK

But I would expect the same garage labour rate to be the same for each car type. A Porsche may take longer to service - hence the bill is bigger. But if it took the same time, why should it cost more? You point about "running over on time" is fine - it takes longer, hence it costs more. But it should not be the case that "because it's a Porsche" it costs more.

As I said in one of the earlier posts - if I turn up to the same place in my daily run around, I expect the same level of service. And I am fairly sure that the audio shop would not have put in any extra effort because of the type of car it was.

tonytaylor

I personaly charge 2 different labour rates and come up against similar arguements to justify it.

In the end you pays your money and take the level of service applicable to that charge. If you want your Porsche to be treated like a 2nd hand Fiesta then by all means pay Fiesta charges. If you want your Porsche traeted better than a Fiesta then be prepared to pay more for a better service. It winds me up when people expect superior special treatment yet only want to pay basic cheap rates.

Why shouldn't the service provider just spend all day doing Fiestas for £40/hr and just not bother with the risks involved in doing what is likely to be a more demanding job for the same money?

DaveK

But from the same service provider - and for a basic job which is not really dependant on the make of car / cost of the car, I do have a problem with this - and it's not even the idea that I'm paying too much for the Porsche.

It implies that if I take my Porsche to Service Provider X, they take great care over it and they do a proper job. They charge me ££££ but I'm happy.

Next week I take my Fiesta to the same service provider for basically the same job. It will only cost me half what the Porsche cost - but according to you and Julian they are not taking the same care - and are not providing the same quality of service - simply because it's a crap Fiesta and not a Porsche, and so somehow I'm expected to settle for less. And that is what I disagree with - if I take a Fiesta and a Porsche to the same service provider for the same job, then I expect them both to be treated the same!

What sort of car does the Fiesta need to be traded in for before owners can expect service providers to do a proper job?

Anyway - I think this is something we will never all agree on. I guess some of us think it's OK to pay more and that it's justified, and some of us don't.

John Boggiano

It's not that they won't take as much care, Dave, just that the expense if they make a mistake is going to be far greater.

But I think your last line is a close to an agreement as this thread is ever going to get.

Ruairidh

One other way of looking at this (and this does not cover all the cost elements involved for service providers like increased cost of liability insurance or additional cost to hire/retain experienced workers for specialized items - like Porsches) is the retail model.

In the retail business the concept is that a retailer needs to decide which two of the following three elements his business will focus on (1) Service (2) Price or (3) Quality.

The customers can have any combination of 2 of those elements but not all 3 for the retailers business model to work.

And if you think about it it works - Neiman Marcus/Harrods offer (1) and (2) but not generally (3). Costco offers (2) and (3) but not (1) (if you think of (1) as being luxorious surroundings - Julian's OPC idea).

Anyhow just another way of thinking about this.

tonytaylor

The job may be the same and not dependant on the type of car but the service provider will view the risk/reward ratio ( and rightly so IMHO) as being different. In order for this risk/reward ratio to equiliberate to his normal business he feels he needs to increase the price. Experience shows that certain customers are more demanding than others and the retort of " what do you expect for £40 " generally cuts no ice.I don't think it does imply this and I think it's unlikely a service provider will drop his price because he thinks he can get away with a lower standard of work for a particular client. For many business of this type the cost of the service provided will be the major factor in attracting custom and the quality of the service is dependant on the ability to maintain profitability within the constrains of the income received. Other business may have quality as the major factor and the price of the service determined by how much it costs to provide this quality.
It's perfectly reasonable to expect to be treated the same by both types of organisation but clients with unrealistic expectations of quality rarely see things this way if they have paid for cheap and cheerful. Business providing a quality service ought not to have clients complaining about the quality. ( they usually complain about the costs )
Fiesta owners should expect the quality of service they have paid for and vice versa Porsche owners.We probably won't agree on this but (hopefully) we can argue for pages and pages in good humour.

DaveK

Well, at least 4!

Julian Thompson

Dave said : "but according to you and Julian they are not taking the same care - and are not providing the same quality of service - simply because it's a crap Fiesta and not a Porsche, and so somehow I'm expected to settle for less."

No - we take the same care Dave, it is just that you WILL statistically be more picky about everything on your Porsche than the guy with his Fiesta - which means we spend more in time with you talking, poking and prodding and ultimately in rectification so you still rate us as a business. Also, if we DO accidentally make an error we have a greater risk factor. Also your car requires more specialist knowledge to know how to disassemble it - it is a rarer car than a Fiesta and so I need to get a lad to do the job who knows about stripping Porsche's - whereas on the Fiesta I can get any of them to do it.

Just to say "I learn not to make errors" is simplistic, Indycam. Noone can train themselves to not make a mistake - otherwise it would not be a mistake.

If you take a Rolex watch to a jeweller for a service it will cost four times the amount that the VERY SAME service will cost on a Seiko - but I would like to think you realise that it needs to, because when the jeweller gets it wrong putting the seal in and it floods the watch when you are in the bath he will be looking at a $2000 bill on the Rolex.

How much would a tailor charge to alter the length of a £3000 suit? A damned sight more than a £50 suit, I can tell you. Would you cut the legs out of a Saville row for £10? Err, I don't think so - I'd want £100 before I even take the bag off you in the shop - and I confess to knowing nothing about tailoring.

Pesty

Being simple as I am it seems very logical to me.

If your a mechanic you decide how much per hour your are going to charge for your time. £40 per hour for example.

If you work on a honda for 2 hours thats £80

if the same job on a Porsche takes 1 hour then its £40

Seems to me thats the only fair way of doing it. as for any damage well I can see your point there but isnt there insureance for that? but Im not a busnesman so I know nothing of running one. This is my view as a customer of how I would liek to be treated thats all.

As for the switch issue( i realise different thread) I work in automotive manufacturing. In strange parts of the factory no one ever goes they make "mature products" products that have long since gone past our contract to make them usualy 10 years. I'm pretty sure they sell them cheaper now even though they have to take the dust sheets off when a new order comes through. the machinery used to make the parts has long since payed for itself.

Kahdmus

If you were a Fiesta owner and took your Fiesta in to the shop wouldnt you expect them to take just as good care of your car as they would with other customers cars (whether they be Porsches, Bentley's or Morris Minors). I would!!!! I certainly would not expect them to treat responsibility of my personal property with less respect than any other customers property.

Kahdmus

Hi R, hope all is well with you!

Interesting post and I certainly follow the logic, however in reality many models in todays competitive market operate on tighter margins and strive for all three..and so they should!

Frankly I expect and am happy to pay for higher quality and/or service but I dont expect to pay more for the SAME quality and service someone else is getting at a lower rate, which I think goes to the heart of DaveK's point!

Cheers mate,