Tom W

According to Adrian's book, the stock ECU in a C2 is numbered 911 618 124 04 and the RS and cup car are 964 618 124 04. The surprising dyno numbers on my car prompted me to look at the ECU in the Turtle. The ECU was replaced a week or so before I bought it because to old one died and the ECU in the car is 964 618 124 03 with a Bosch number of 0 261 200 473 and it says Type 911 MW-DZ-01 on it.

Anyone know what this means for the ECU I have? Is it a new number for a stock C2 or is it a different "flavor" (or flavour for you Brits). The receipt I have shows that the PO only paid $350 for it!

deep_purple

I don't know if this will help...

Austrian EBay had an item for same a while ago: "Porsche 911 MOTRONIC Steuergerät BOSCH 964 618 124 03"

And some other links.

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache...ient=firefox-a

JasonAndreas

964-618-124-03 is the almost standard ECU for USA/CANADA 1991+ 964s, unfortunately they are nothing special.

Adrian

Dear Tom,
Page 135 of my book lists the DME parts numbers and yours there under model year 1992.
The 911 series and the 964 series are two completely different unit series and cannot be compared.
The 911 series ended in model year 1990 and you have a model year 1992 with the correct stock standard part number installed.
Ciao,
Adrian.

PS: Your dyno figures do not surprise me. I have seen this many times on the Sportec dyno. In model year 1991 when Porsche installed head gaskets, the larger throttle body and the plastic air intake system it restored the compression ratio and actually improved the engine output.
An extra 20 to 30 HP depending on engine condition is usually the result. Porsche never upped their figures. I have seen more than one, standard 12 year old Carrera RS putting out 285 HP on the flywheel.

Tom W

Adrian: Thanks. I was looking at page 501? where you have the comparison numbers for the C2 RS and cup ECUs.

Jason: I would have been surprised if it was special, but I like to check. It gives me more confidence that we will see the desired rwhp gains from a new chip and exhaust.

Deep Purple: Thanks also. I suppose I should have done the google search. Thanks for your efforts (and don't tell the Rennlist search ****'s on the 993 board of my indiscretion). I see you are local to me. Have you done any track events or BAR drives lately?

deep_purple

Tom,

We actually met a few times a few years ago. You and your wife would attend the AutoX schools/events, with your 993. I haven't seen the turtle in person, but I'm quite curious....

I recently acquired the 951 in anticipation of track events. I hope to attend my first event soon. Currently I'm learning about my new car. I haven't attended any BAR drives (usually too early for me).

Cheers,
ST

JasonAndreas

Adrian,
When you were playing on the dyno did you ever happen to notice the 5-10% of throttle opening that isn't used at WOT? Any chance the AFM is clipping the max voltage level earlier than it should?

Adrian

Dear Jason,
I am afraid not. I have only seen the whole car dynoed and they are all re-assembled for this.
Ciao,
Adrian.

tonytaylor

While I would agree that it seems likely that many of the 964RS variants produced more than the factory quoted hp it's worth pointing out that these cars used a different ECU chip than the stock 964s allowing more ignition timing advance but requiring higher octane fuel, and it is the chip that accounts for a greater part of the hp increase. Re-chipping standard cars will produce similar hp numbers.

I have been lead to believe most 964s don't make factory compression figures and I can't see how adding the head gasket would increase compression per se. There is no reason why the earlier cars cannot match the compression figures of the later cars with the head gasket.

The later plastic manifold and single throttle body is superior to the earlier aluminium manifold with its dual choke throttle body. However it is not the intial limiting factor in air flow to the engine. It would appear that the standard injectors, which are the same on all NA 964 variants, will not support over 300hp as they cannot provide enough fuel being wide open at this level. The early cars with the aluminium manifold can make 300hp. To take full advantage of the superiority of the later plastic manifold you'll need to flow more fuel than the standard injector system will support.

Adrian

Dear Tony,
Firstly the non head gasket engines do not make compression (MY 1989, 1990 and some 1991).
I have never seen a serviceable 964 engine (late MY 1991) with head gaskets not make compression.
With the head gasket installation kit (if you do it properly) you get new re-designed pistons, cylinders and rings. Chapter 10 of my book has this repair scheme.
I have seen the data (in huge quantities) and the numbers first hand and I have seen the lower mileage later model normal 964s often putting out up to 270 hp at the flywheel in standard form.
I have seen the odd one putting out less as well but this is related to an engine problem.
I am not sure I can agree with your fuel injector theory either because I regularily see rebuilt 3.6 litre engines for the 964 with all the correct goodies (MAF, remapping etc) installed, making 320 HP at the flywheel with standard injectors.
Ciao,
Adrian

PS. I obtained access to all of this data because I am trying (very trying) to make up a DIY engine performance kit. I have been trying to work out if we can use existing map data for re-programming the chips and including said chip in the kit. The work is ongoing because a fuel quality switch has to be included. The data being used comes from over 150 different 964s (from around Eurpe but mainly Swiss and German) run on the same dyno since 2000.
I have personally sat in on at least 20 different 964 runs.

Marc Shaw

Adrian - please let us all know when that "DIY engine performance kit" is available as I'm sure there are many here (including me!) who would be VERY interested.

Marc

Adrian

Dear Marc,
I have a meeting on the 11th Jan regarding this. My main concern is the cost.
The kit will include a new high flow catalytic converter and this is probably the most expensive part.
I dropped the idea of recoring old ones.
We are also looking at an exchange engine program with performance guarantees.
I also want these people to sponsor Rennlist first before I start any serious selling activities here.
Ciao,
Adrian.

tonytaylor

There is no reason why the earlier cars will not make compression unless they develope a fault. As we know many did develope a fault which is best corrected using the later P+Cs. I will use the 993 3.8RS P+Cs when my own fault becomes more serious.It really isn't my theory on the injectors; AMD indicated the same when mine was rechipped and AFAIK Chip Wizards in the UK haven't acheived over 300bhp.
It is interesting that you're data all comes from one dyno. as it appears at odds with most other data I have been party to. 9Ms data is courtsy of Peter Hignetts dyno who is independant of 9M. AMD have their own dyno, Chipwizards use various but has used Hignetts.
Other data here .

Marc Shaw

Adrian - what about a cat. bypass instead of a high flow cat. converter for those of us who do not have to pass emissions tests regularly - would knock a few dollars (or pounds, or francs, or Euros, or whatever ) off the price?

Marc

ps. Don't mean to tell you how to run your business or how best to improve performance, just a thought...

Adrian

Dear Marc,
I can answer that easily.
a) Cat bypass is not legal here in Switzerland and the kit has to be certified to be sold here.
b). All the chips are done with emissions legal cars and not bypassed cars.
c). Trying to create market specific kits makes things too complicated and actually increases supplier costs.

Dear Tom,
The dyno in question is required to be calibrated and certified every six months by the Swiss authorities because it is used for automobile certification.
On the pulse type injectors of the 964s and up the limiting factor is rpm only. There is a point where the injector cannot open and close fast enough. The amount of fuel added to the air is solely dependant upon how long the injector is open for. The longer it is open the more fuel that is added to the air. The only limitation as I said is the engine rpm. These injectors are good for a lot more rpm that our standard engines are limited to.
Ciao,
Adrian.

PS: Here are a couple of shots of my C4 on the said dyno. Wind speed is 120 kph and the car speed is 204 kph in 4th gear. The internals of these rollers are a work of art if you are into electrical motors.