DaveK

OK - obviously this is all made up, because if it was true I would be irresponsible in the way I drive......

At the weekend, I pulled onto a dual carriageway behind a new ('04 reg) Honda Civic Type R. He floored it, I floored it - and I followed behind him and was clearly slightly quicker. But - when he pulled over the the inside lane I discovered that I was not very much quicker - and when we caught traffic about 5s later he was still able to pull back out in front of me. Later, he did let me pass, and although I didn't look at the speedo I assume I got up to about 120-130mph - and was a bit surprised when he still seemed to right behind me.

Then last night, at a set of traffic lights (also on dual carriageway) some Seat cupra thing (I assume a turbo?) came up quickly next to me. We were both at the front, lights turned green...... I didn't pull away all that cleanly, so that didn't help. I initially pulled about half a car length ahead, but from then on he seemed to be accelerating as quickly as I was. Think we got to about 120mph (again, didn't check the speedo) and I didn't seem to be pulling away.

I know modern hot hatches etc. are quick - many of them make 200-ish bhp, and some of the turbos are more than that (my friend has a Fiat coupe which I think is 225). But I did expect a bit more of a difference.

I'm generally quite happy with the performance of my car these days. But in the last week, I've began to feel like I'm driving a Robin Reliant. Surely my car should be quicker than these hot hatch things?

dove

Some of these modern hot hatches are very quick,I'm not suprised the seat was a handfull but as for the civic you must have a car issue if you cant blow one of them away.

Christer

Hmmm...I think these things are quite subjective and depend on a lot of variables revelant to each encounter. The Cupra as its a Turbo car could easily have been chipped, the Type R could also have been tuned. Also, 20, 30, 50 hp here or there doesn't always make as much difference as you would expect. Some days I am clearly quicker than a new M3 (in the last instance with drive and passenger) others I am (or it seems I am) struggling to get away from a really beaten up old Supra/200SX or whatever.

I don't think there is a good answer here, because even 50-80hp difference doesn't make a lot of difference sometimes and I guess it has to do with gearing, reaction times and a host of other stuff.

If you think your car is slow then a dyno trip might be in order? In fact, I will pop up to 9M with my car again in the New Year when they will have their own dyno installed. Perhaps we could get a group together if people would be interested?

DaveK

Ah, but 9Ms dyno is for 2WD only.

I did have it dyno'd a year or two back, because I wasn't convinced it was as quick as it should be, and it came out at 250bhp as it should. I think perhaps I need to compare it with a couple of standard C4s at the next get together. If it does seem woefully slow, I'll start reconsidering the 993TT or supercharger options (although there's no point supercharging a car that's clearly broken).

Christer

I didn't know 9M's new dyno was 2WD only....I think you will find all is well - as I said the differences in performance are not as big as you would imagine sometimes...but a 993TT would be nice of course.....

DaveK

When I went up there a couple of years ago, the dyno they were in the process of getting was definitely 2WD so I assume it's the same one.

Well, I hope all is well. Although - I guess the real question is : even if my car is 100% OK, am I happy that 17 year olds in their hot hatches can keep up with me? To which I think the answer might be NO! I know I've been through this before - several times - but I may have to consider my options again. I may need more power / speed.

leosayer

Dave, probably a stupid question but are you sure you used full throttle and only changed up at the red line?

I was trundling along at 40mph in 3rd gear next to a diesel golf a while ago through some m-way roadworks and when they finished we both went for it, although I stayed in 3rd gear. We were neck and neck for what seemed ages until I hit 4000rpm-ish and waved goodbye to him. I think he overtook me later when I stopped for petrol.

On the way to our meet a couple of months ago I had a tussle with a Lotus Exige and managed to overtake him (just) which fully restored my confidence in the car since the diesel golf scare.

250hp just wouldn't be acceptable in a £50,000 sports car these days so you can't expect rocketship performance, especially considering our cars weigh c.1400kg. Console yourself with the fact that there is far more to them than that eg looks, handling, steering feel, throttle response, adjustablity, engine/exhaust sound and just a general feeling of everything being set up for driving pleasure first and everything else second. Show me any hot hatch that comes anywhere near to that, regardless of hp.

964RS

I had a race last year against a Civic type R that really wanted to race against my old Carrera 3.2. He simply just didn't had a chance to keep up with me between 60-120. In fact he got way behind and was so embarrassed that he didn't overtake me even if I slowed down dramatically. These cars may have big horsepowers but accelerating is all about having torque at low revs (i.e. big cylinder volume).

That said, you can get a Turbo car very fast with a chipconversion and some cooled air (bigger intercooler) and that might have been the scenario with the car you raced against.

DaveK

Hmm - well if a Civic Type R can't stay with a 3.2, it definitely shouldn't be anywhere near me! I work with a girl who's got a Civic Type R - think I'll have to try heading home at the same time as her one day.

Christer

I totally agree with Leo Sayer (what a great name - i think i told you that at the last meet?) wholeheartedly. Having said that personally I liked the 964 so much that instead of buying a Turbo/993Turbo I actually modded my own car. I am of the opinion that the car can take a lot more power especially if brakes, suspension and so on are upgraded as well. As some of you will know, there are certain problems with the output of my car at the moment and as such may not be fulfilling its full potential, but I can still get very sideways even under light throttle in the wet, and last week the wheels started spinning in the wet in 3rd as I went through 3000rpm....traction was returned within a few moments but you see what I mean? You have to be abit careful if you have a C2. I guess if you have a Prodrive C4 then its a bit safer....

Rob W.

DaveK, you may or may not recall Michael Hinchcliffe's 964 in Dec 2002 911 & PW? He's selling it. Buy it if you want a quick 964...!

1990 C2 Coupe, RHD, Stone Grey metallic, Linen Leather interior, Sports Seats, Roock sports suspension, 3.8l Roock conversion, RS clutch / flywheel, Big Red brake conversion, 17" Cup 1s, Teardrops, Cat bypass & G pipe, Front Strut Brace, Air Con, Sunroof, 133K miles

Rob W

Christer

His car spun a bearing over a year ago but I guess that was fixed. It is a gorgeous car though....whats the price?

Rob W.

It is indeed a beauty. I would buy it myself if the finances would stretch to 2 p-cars. I think he's looking for £20k ish which doesn't even cover the cost of the modifications I would have thought.

Rob W.

Christer

No, I can tell you that it probably doesn't....sigh...

964RS

DaveK,

Keep in mind though that my 3.2 was w/o cathalyst, another chip and some other small mods. In acceleration I could keep the no mods C4's just (only just) behind me up to 120-130 but unfortunately not the no mods C2's. Hence my new RS .

/A