Arjan B.

Ian,

You can solve this very easy.

Take one of your biggest friends, go to the owner of the shop, and ask him how much his 'good name' is worth to him.
Tell him that you are in the Porsche scene and easy can damage his good
name by tell the bad experience around. You have to talk to the guy and tell him bthat a 2,5 hour charge would be reasonable for such a repair.

By speading his name around, he could loos costumers and potentional costumers aswell. Ask If he is aware of that.

See what happens after that.

warmfuzzies

Blimey Arjan, I guess negotiaion isn't in the Dutch language....

Seriously though, you need to make it clear that you are dissatisfied with the approach, and are considering action against the proprietor if you cannot settle this amicably, but you must give the shop every opportunity to resolve this amicably first, otherwise you'd look foolish if it came to court time and you hadn't made the adult approach.

kevin.

Adrian

Dear Arjan,
The shop may also reply; Are you aware of libel laws?
It is not the purpose of Rennlist to be used as tool to threaten people.
I disapprove of this approach totally. How would you feel if somebody took that approach towards the company you worked for? I am actually quite shocked that somebody in the business like you are, would advise this course of action without hearing both sides of the story.
The shops views and friendly negotiations are required here. I will remind all people who read this thread that you can be sued for Libel even posting on Rennlist. Somebody recently came very close. It has happened on the VW board and it has happened from a letter to the editor of a small club magazine in the UK so be very careful what you say. If you do say anything make sure you have all the facts on paper before following the confrontational advice recommended by others. My late father had a saying which is as valid today as it was when he told me 30 odd years ago. "Be careful throwing good money after bad."
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Arjan B.

Adrian,

First of all I reckon that Ian is telling the truth. Second off all I never Mentioned to use Rennlist as a way of threat. Using Rennlist would be completely wrong. I just said "Porsche scene" and that is a wide range understanding.

I just told Ian to talk to the guys and let them know not to be the "I take everything for an answer" costumer.

Threaten people is not what I ment and not what I would advise on this. I just would let the guys know that "bad name" because of "over calculated bills" is bad for business.

We don't step too legal people [lawers etc.] very often, we try to set a deal with people most of the time, and it works mostly.

Ian, Different countries different style, but most important is that your problem should be solved.

Sorry if I brought it the wrong way, I ment it the right way.....

Arjan B.

Adrian again,

On the question 'what if this happens to our company' I want to tell you a little story.

As I was in the USA, I joint Randall to a garage to do some service to his 964. I watched Randall sign for a repair amount.... He signed the work order before some thing was done to his car. This is very un usual to us. I watched this because we get more and more non paying costumers. We have the 'Ian case' more then once a week'
After pick up the Porsche he signed again for the complete bill. They called him during the day that the service was more expensive then agreed. He had to sign for that too.

We in the Netherlands have to go to that kind of "handling" too. In the major cities they do already but where I live it's still very rare.

I still think that for sure the US Citizens handle to often to fast things in court. This is a bad habit. If you have difficult things you have too, but may be a lot of things you could deal your self.

I hope you understand my story.

Adrian

Dear Arjan and all,
Let me explain myself a little better. Maybe I am an idealist but Rennlist is not just a web forum it is a community. That community is made up of Porche people. Not just owners but business as well. Many of the forums have individual business sponsors. Rennlist is sponsored overall by many other companies. These businesses and sponsors are just as much a part of the Rennlist community as you or I. Rennlist especially in the 911 world has a very high reputation of being a fair place to be. I get cold chills when I see posts such as these made which can whip up a frenzy of "Go get em" advice. Rennlist is not judge, jury and executioner. We are a community of fair minded people.
Many of these posts like this one are made secondhand. One person speaking on behalf of another. I have no doubt that Ian is telling the truth based on what he has seen and heard. However there is another truth, the people who did the work. We cannot judge anything without the supply of evidence.
As you point out Arjan one can protect oneself and the business also can introduce methods to protect themselves.
On the face of it the story Ian told us certainly appears to be excessive labour rates and excessive labour time charged. APPEARS being the operative word.
As consumers we have a need to protect ourselves as well. We cannot just sit back and play the blame game. There are some basic consumer rules when putting anything into repair. One is to ask the labour rate, the second is to ask for a quote and third is to advise that if the repair will exceed that quote that the repair facility contact you before hand and explain. My mechanic does this because it is company policy.
Sometimes we have to learn the hard way. There are crooks out there in every field of business. However there are also very unreasonable customers (as you know first hand) and there are also dishonest people.
In the end please remember this. Rennlist is John Dunkle. We are all here doing what we do because of his vision. John cannot read every post, analyse the direction of a thread. As a community that is our job. Our survival on this forum depends 100% on John Dunkle being able to secure sponsorship and financial support for this forum. Therefore business must be confident that they can come here and get a fair go as we Aussies say.
I have seen what happens when business is scared off such places as rennlist.
That is my explanation for why I have posted what I have. I believe always there are two sides to every story and I require some evidence to support claims before making real judgements, advice and certainly before Rennlist becomes a lynch mob against a business whether they are named or not because eventually the name slips out. Call me what you like but this world of ours seems to me to be getting very angry and rushing to judgements. I still believe in the saying "Innocent until proven guilty". I realise that this is old fashioned and out of step in the 21st century but you know the old saying, "You can't teach an old dog new tricks".
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Arjan B.

Adrian,

I advised may be the wrong way of handling to Ian.
Toghether with a difference in language, culture and all kinds of things, I will be more carefull in a advise next time, especially to protect the Rennlist System. Agian, I never mentioned Rennlist to use in the conflict as you have to admit.

Either for you Adrian, sometimes you like to deal difficulties on th 'Australian way' but you have to stay polite as weel. This is difficult for you too I think.

Enough talked about this, clear to me, clear to others.

Let's continue with the real problem.

The huge labor bill is way out of range. For installing a complete car alarm you need 1 1/2 till 2 days, so why need more to remove it??
Why didn't he made a price deal in front, as it is usual in the US?

Communication is everything here............. I think they missed that chance.

ian

Thanks for all the feedback,

After a polite email from both me and my father last week asking him to explain the charges / justify them the mechanic has not gotten back to us. I am hoping he will see the error of his ways and reduce the bill down to something that is resonable.

If not, well then we will have to choose what path to take. Thanks for all the advice thus far.

Adrian

Dear Ian,
I actually suggest that you and your dad pay him a personal visit. Email is not the best way to contact people in these situations. The up front close and personal approach is far more effective.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

ian

My dad is dropping by the mechanic's shop today or tomorrow. I live 200 miles away so dropping by is rather hard to do, I could just skip out on work, but I feel that wouldn't be the best way to handle this. I have given my dad some things to say, and point out about the bill, hopefully he will do a good job of getting our point of view accross.

I agree email isn't the best, but I wanted to have a written record of the complaint documenting my thoughts. I printed out and saved a copy for myself.