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Carbon is much lighter than steel and probably just as repairable.
I weighed a factory steel quarter turbo spec no undercoating or paint I have in stock. Total weight including the door jamb piece which is an extra 1.5 pounds weighed 15 pounds. The same in CF piece without the door jamb part weighed only 7.5 pounds. I went through this exercise and in order to paint the CF and eliminate all the issues with blow holes and other things along with the layers of skin coat to eliminate the weave from being seen after paint weighed 12.5 without paint. Nearly the same. Add the door jamb piece in steel and you are at 14 pounds. IMO I'll take the steel. I guess if you don't mind the ugly weave showing through you can save some additional weight but not for me.
My RSR tribute using all steel panels weighs less than a singer and has much more power for a fraction of the cost. The car suffered a hard hit in the rear. The quarter panel was salvageable and an easy cheap repair. If it was made of CF it would have shattered and need to be repalced costing far more.
Solid impact with armco
easy repair. If you think this could be fixed as easily with CF you are mistaken.
CF has its pros and cons just like anything. Unless you are racing and need every ounce of weight I guess it is worth spending up for but for a street car is just another concern. Have you priced CF panels LOL I spent less on my first 964C2.
Try seeing if your CF on a McLaren is repairable and you will find out they won't allow it. My friend is a McLaren approved repair shop and the slightest damage opening a door on a Senna into something cost $120k just for the CF door panel the paint and swapping all the parts over was extra. It was close to a $150k repair for something far less offensive than what happened to my car.
To each their own but like so many things these days we see shinny stuff and just assume it is better.
I weighed a factory steel quarter turbo spec no undercoating or paint I have in stock. Total weight including the door jamb piece which is an extra 1.5 pounds weighed 15 pounds. The same in CF piece without the door jamb part weighed only 7.5 pounds. I went through this exercise and in order to paint the CF and eliminate all the issues with blow holes and other things along with the layers of skin coat to eliminate the weave from being seen after paint weighed 12.5 without paint. Nearly the same. Add the door jamb piece in steel and you are at 14 pounds. IMO I'll take the steel. I guess if you don't mind the ugly weave showing through you can save some additional weight but not for me.
My RSR tribute using all steel panels weighs less than a singer and has much more power for a fraction of the cost. The car suffered a hard hit in the rear. The quarter panel was salvageable and an easy cheap repair. If it was made of CF it would have shattered and need to be repalced costing far more.
Solid impact with armco
easy repair. If you think this could be fixed as easily with CF you are mistaken.
CF has its pros and cons just like anything. Unless you are racing and need every ounce of weight I guess it is worth spending up for but for a street car is just another concern. Have you priced CF panels LOL I spent less on my first 964C2.
Try seeing if your CF on a McLaren is repairable and you will find out they won't allow it. My friend is a McLaren approved repair shop and the slightest damage opening a door on a Senna into something cost $120k just for the CF door panel the paint and swapping all the parts over was extra. It was close to a $150k repair for something far less offensive than what happened to my car.
To each their own but like so many things these days we see shinny stuff and just assume it is better.
Not knocking the metal, as it's nice, but you just said yourself how light the CF is, but you don't like the simple finish that shows the weave in certain lights. So sure, load it up with filler, and paint and it weighs more, common sense. Proper panels don't need much work and paint lays pretty nice on well made stuff. I'd argue about the repairability part. My car is all fiberglass, my 996tt is a mix w/ carbon kevlar parts, and when I damage the front end, I just repair it in my garage. I've been working with composites for many years as a hobby, it's not rocket science. Stuff is very repairable.
I don't disagree when parts are obliterated, you're gonna have to get new panels, but steel also at that point probably necessitates replacement too. Corvette has been around a long time w/ composite panels. I miss the old Saturns. Great cars, interior finishes all black, easily bolt on/off panels, they were very serviceable, almost like they had to kill the brand.
Not knocking the metal, as it's nice, but you just said yourself how light the CF is, but you don't like the simple finish that shows the weave in certain lights. So sure, load it up with filler, and paint and it weighs more, common sense. Proper panels don't need much work and paint lays pretty nice on well made stuff. I'd argue about the repairability part. My car is all fiberglass, my 996tt is a mix w/ carbon kevlar parts, and when I damage the front end, I just repair it in my garage. I've been working with composites for many years as a hobby, it's not rocket science. Stuff is very repairable.
We all have different opinions on what looks as acceptable quality work. I have worked with CF, FG, Steel and aluminum panels. There are very few manufacturer's I would buy these products from, most are IMO junk.
I have a few gorgeous CF pieces on my car from Bob Linton's America GS which are amazing and the FG I have sen from Akira Nakai are second to none but again pricey and I am not a fan of the look. There are few very pricey parts from Europe but the price to weight savings delta doesn't do it for me. Anything else by the time you can prepare it for paint and have it look half decent ends up being heavier and IMO inferior quality requiring mass amounts of work. If we are talking the most common US parts there is practically no savings at all. My GT racing front fenders were so thick they ended up weighing as much as steel needing lots of fitting and work so I sold them. This is very much like the hype over magnesium wheels from this period which should weigh 1/3rd less than the same aluminum but don't because they add reinforcing material that reduces the weight savings. The value vs weight savings and durability isn't IMO wort it.
To me for a million dollar street car I don't expect to see CF weave showing through as I have seen. Maybe from an 80's build F40 but by todays standards it is not for me. Maybe a track rat but a million dollar car?? I have seen a few CF bits disintegrate with just a minor impact. IMO it made more sense to replace than waste the time to fix but that is relative to your time vs out of pocket expenses I guess.
One thing I have seen is CF roof skins. IMO bad decision. Looses weight up top but the structural rigidity is not the same. By peeling back the rain gutters and replacing it with a factory skin both bonded and welded then crimped back has made my C2 far more rigid than the cars I have seen with bonded roof skins. i will stick with steel glad CF works for you.
Originally Posted by s65e90
Paying $150k to repair a Mac door seems a little asinine, but to each their own....
If you spent $2.5+M on a car would you want repaired CF bits? McLaren controls everything including the paint. You can't buy it unless you are an approved shop and they don't supply a formula but the paint itself. If there's damage and they find out it was repaired by an unapproved shop good luck selling it.
GL getting Vette panels these days and nothing is that easy to do properly. The impact my rear fender had would have destroyed any CF panel to the point of needing replacement. It is light not indestructible.
I've been doing this a long time too, so we'll just agree we have differing opinions. Those RWB panels are nice, my car has similar, but nothing there I'd write home about either, as I've gone and reinforced lots of areas where panels will be removed/reset for repair access. And if I'm buying a 7 figure car, no one is gonna dictate who repairs it and why or how as long as it's an approved method. And yes, most carbon panels are not structural, just aesthetic pieces and provide the aforementioned weight savings. Structural carbon is indeed very strong, go take a look at the Koenigsegg crash test vids, that car really holds up well, even the outer panels. Lots of new cars are using CF roof skins and while I never cared for bonding panels when I was inside a shop environment, it's been a factory approved repair for a very, very long time, even on cars that were originally welded.
Wish I could get past it but composite cars don’t appeal to me at all and for the same reasons I carry a heavy HK P7 instead of a lighter composite modern model.
Wish I could get past it but composite cars don’t appeal to me at all and for the same reasons I carry a heavy HK P7 instead of a lighter composite modern model.
I used to feel the same, there's still some trepidation, but as Cobalt mentioned its relative to the panels. I've owned a Vette prior, and those feel pretty stout, the front panels are carbon (Zo6), but that is OEM.
I've been doing this a long time too, so we'll just agree we have differing opinions. Those RWB panels are nice, my car has similar, but nothing there I'd write home about either, as I've gone and reinforced lots of areas where panels will be removed/reset for repair access. And if I'm buying a 7 figure car, no one is gonna dictate who repairs it and why or how as long as it's an approved method. And yes, most carbon panels are not structural, just aesthetic pieces and provide the aforementioned weight savings. Structural carbon is indeed very strong, go take a look at the Koenigsegg crash test vids, that car really holds up well, even the outer panels. Lots of new cars are using CF roof skins and while I never cared for bonding panels when I was inside a shop environment, it's been a factory approved repair for a very, very long time, even on cars that were originally welded.
I guess that is why neither of us own a McLaren. LOL. There isn't much to a 964 tub albeit far stronger than G body on back but as we all know the coupes are much more rigid than the Cabs and targas. I don't see singer doing any crash testing and with all the safety equipment/impact bumpers, airbags etc removed I prefer my old heavy 964 with all the insanity of todays drivers. IMO it is far safer to drive on the track at speed than on the highway. If you look at the new RuF cars they are all CF and impressive however when speaking with them at Amelia they said depending on if any of the structural panels are damaged the car would not be salvageable just like many of the new cars using bonded aluminum and CF. I would still take a Ruf over a singer if you can find one for sale.
No doubt properly made Structural CF can be very strong but the layers add up in weight. The quality stuff is still stupidly expensive compared to most of the bolt on cosmetic stuff we see. Although Porsche pricing for sheet metal is getting outrageously expensive.
You might appreciate this: An early attempt at CF years ago. Ventilation for a 962 street car.
A CF piece I helped my friend with for his 962 street car. Very sturdy and light
Trying to ventilate a 962 cabin isn't easy.
This is the car it is going into. The CF is quite sturdy but not light with all the cross weave layers. It has its place and when done properly is amazing stuff I agree. Hopefully we will see it unveiled at Rennsport this year. Maybe the parts will someday become more reasonable to buy. The new GT car fenders are very light but cost more than my C2 did not many years ago. Crazy.
I would like to see things like this for our cars but Bob will never sell them and I probably can't afford it.
After the recent Festival of Speed footage, I can't say the design has grown on me at all.... It looks like a bullfrog from the front, and the front three-quarters looks like a glitch in the camera, or a front end and back end from two different cars.
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07-11-2023, 09:24 AM
