joey bagadonuts

I saw a recent post on another Forum in which a member announced that it was time to upgrade to a turbo? Why? So he can blast to the supermarket at Mach II?

It made me wonder if I really need any more car than what I have now. With the new suspension, it's very formidable at the track. And around town, it's classic lines and raw charm give me all the ego boost I could ever want. I love that it looks like an "old car" but can keep up with the young pups--the ultimate sleeper.

Listen, I'm not trying to start a "964 is the greatest 911" thread. It's just that I don't see any better bang for buck than my current car. I've yet to realize its existing potential and I can extract even more peformance with additional tweaks.

Maybe this is just a matter of resources. Thoughts?

tonytaylor

Totaly agree with you Joey.

I had an instructor drive my car last weekend and one of the ( many) lessons I learned is that I don't need to buy a faster car. He passed everything on the track. Now passing the Suburu WRX's, Mitsibushi Evo's and M3/CSL's is one thing, I can do that, but he also passed the Lotus Exige's and Caterham 400's that I had previously considered to be beyond my cars abilities. He also mamaged to pass one of the other instructors in a Vectra V6 challenge car on slicks.

It's a great feeling that one of the least expensive cars on the circuit is one of the quickest and 911's look cool as well.

John Boggiano

After having all sorts of sports cars, I've stuck with my 964 for ten years now, precisely because it does everything I could want.

The performance is very strong, but remains usable without having to search out suitable locations. Ahem.

No more modern car (except perhaps a 993) can come close to the involvement.

I was just out at my garage swapping the cars around to bring the 964 to the front for tomorrow's Welsh trip. A salesman for a power company arrived as I was manouvering and just shook his head slowly as he looked at the 964. 'That car is just incredible', he said. 'They don't sound like that anymore, do they?' 'Don't they have BMW engines, now?'

BGLeduc

No doubt an instructor could dust my best at a track event, but I have my reasons for wanting a Turbo.

I live at about 5,600 feet altitude. You really have no idea how much life that sucks out of ANY normally aspirated motor. I am sure my brethren from Denver and other high altitude locations will echo my sentiments.

A few months after I acquired the P Car, I took a trip to San Diego for an SCCA event. HOLY SH*T. At sea level, I felt like I had an extra 100 HP and 75 lbs of torque under my right foot. I had a damn hard time getting used to it, but man, blending into traffic on the freeway was way cooool.

I have already told my spouse that there will likely be another P Car in my future, and it will be blown! After all, we do have a 3 car garage....need to fill the 3rd bay with something other than the lawn mower!

And, Joey, at the risk of being labeled a cheap skate, it may in fact my a 944 Turbo

BGL

Doug H

I have the "other cars" and I love my 964 as much or better than any 911 I have owned (maybe better because I wouldn't trade it). Your car looks to be about perfect. I would think you would miss your car if you got a newer one. My advice would be to go with something like the Lenz system for about $ 5,000 to boost the hp. I think you can get turbo performance without the lag and possibly without the punch that could upset balance on the track with the Lenz system.

forklift

A great question and one I have thought of often. I have to preface my answer by saying that I have never driven a 996, but have driven a 993 C4S and an '86 Carrera.

You could approach this question from several different angles. My main factors are 1. Money 2. Driver feedback/handling/being one with the car. 3. Performance, more specifically track performance for me.

1. $, When I decided on my RSA it was not a rash decision as I have the original R&T test (along with many other Porsche tests since high school/1986) for the RSA. I also had recently become friends with one of my customers (a story in itself) who had a RSA. I drove quite a few times and decided my two year sports car drought needed to end and end with a RSA. Now I have always loved the 3.6 Turbo and of course the 993 TT, but $ had to be a consideration. What I came up with is that I could afford a 3.6 Turbo, but would be strapped for $ to the point I probably could not track it. I also thought the RSA would be a better track car which helped my decision. Now I must admit a car I do lust after is the GT3, but for where I am in life financially, the RSA is THE car for me. I have told everyone I feel so strongly about the car that when I get to the point I can afford a GT3, that I will absolutely keep the RSA.

So for me personally the 964 RSA is the best car I can afford and still be able to pay for track time, maintenance and some upgrades. If I could do it over again I would have bought a car with upgrades, I had no idea how slippery my slope would become. To be honest, I am not sure if I can afford all of these upgrades! I think I would rather sleep in a tent though, than give up my car if times got tough.

2. Motocarzen, Well the choice of Porsche is a natural for being one with the car and it is common knowledge that generally as the 911 evolves, the performance envelope increases, but the Zen is decreased (generally). I have driven an '86 Carrera (about 8 years ago) and I do remember the unbelievable feeling I got from being one with the car. I also remember it being slow compared to my '93 RX7 (for acceleration out of corners, not drag racing). I feel with my non-powered steering 964 I have the feeling of the '86 with the performance of most any of the fastest NA Porsches (GT3 excluded, this comment is only made after adding my Autothority MAF, which made a profound difference). I would love to drive a GT3 for the zen experience in that car, however, ****I really can't imagine a better driving (driver feedback) car than my RSA**** It might exist, but I have not driven it. My best guess that would be in the GT3, and hope to find out someday. Just a side note, when the last generation M3s were getting praise for this quality I must say I was very disappointed with my drive. The M Coupe got great reviews and had terrible handling (Unfortunately I owned one for a year, still kicking myself for not buying a 911. I am currently going to therapy for this mistake). My RX7 was very, very good, but not as good as the 964. The 993 C4S is great, but has over boosted steering (IMO) and is the same rack I think that is in the 993TT. The worst car I have driven in this area is the Corvette of every year to up to the C5. I have never driven any Ferrari or Lotus either, so I am by no means an expert on any of this. I can only say that my RSA wins in this category hands down to any other sports car I have driven.

3. Performance, for me you can only drive your car so fast on the street, so as far as pure performance I need to look to track performance. I could care less if a modded STI could take me at a stop light, I would rather see his times at the local track (they might be good though!). Really in this category I can sum up by saying when I was at VIR a few weeks ago, we had some drivers in GT3 come to the blue group from the black.....and I was RIGHT on their tails in all of the corners including the 120 mph esses. They pulled ahead in the straights (not by as much as you would think though), but I actually would catch back up slightly in the corners w/o traffic. With traffic of course I would catch up, but who cares. The cool thing is I have all of this on video tape. When I tell my friends they don't believe me, then I show them the tape.

So to say I love my car is an understatement and is perfect to me in the handling/braking department. So much so that I think I would rather invest $ in gearing and engine mods (3.8?) to keep up w/ the GT3s on the straights than to buy a GT3. But I still need to drive a GT3 before I give you that final answer.....and win the lottery.

Jim

joey bagadonuts

He He He

FTR, from a purely performance standpoint, I'd have to admit that the best bang for buck amongst ALL p-cars is embodied in the 944 Turbo. It comes with 964-type performance, decent suspension, solid brakes and 50/50 weight distribution--all for under $20K. But if we're talking 911's, I'd contend that the bang for buck prize goes to the 964.

Interesting point, though, regarding elevation. Perhaps it's time for a cone filter?

Not surprised to see the thumbs up from the track guys. Like you said, Jim, the GT3 and other cars can really get going but if you're on your game, they're not always running away from you. But of course, their hardware is a tad more expensive and I'd want a heck of a lot more seat time before pushing the limits of a $100K toy.

As for a power upgrade, Doug, I'm still at a point in my driving where I want to max out my current kit. Big hp can make up for many driver shortcomings and there's a huge sense of satisfaction that comes from blowing by someone with more power due to ability.

So maybe it's a matter of finances and driving experience which has me content with my current ride. I've yet to master the beast and until I do, I don't see a need to up the ante. I guess I'm sort of a cheapskate in my own way.

Eyal 951

944 turbo is damn good in the bang for the buck category, if you can do a little maintainence yourself.
964's are nice cars as well? Are they superior to the 944 turbo? well, depends what category. acceleration? stock vs. stock? by a little bit. 300 dollars in Guru chips and an extra 60-70 hp in the 951, and almost any NA Porsche is in the rear view mirror. But is straight line, your thing? is it mine? Absolutly NOT. It's fun in the straights, but turning is what counts in my book. The 944 is a perfectly balanced car, and is one of the better handeling porsches. Does it do it better then the 964? I doubt it, probably about equal, until you start messing with MO30, etc then things get fun. Maintenaince is where you guys really have me. I bet the 964 doesn't really break that much. the 951 doesnt either, that much, but it will need consistant work. For a car priced at about 9000, i think its a pretty good bang for the buck car, even compared to a 964.
Basically, the 964 in stock trim is a superior car, but also comes with quite a large premium over the 944 turbo. For the price of a 964, you can have a 944 turbo that will puninfy a 964 in allcategories. thats if a price of a 964 was your budget,of course a 964 can be moddified as well.
then again, the PO of my turbo sold it for a white 964... Wonder if that means something?
~Eyal

joey bagadonuts

Team Tyke,

I was told by an experienced PCA Club Racer/Instructor that, with the right suspension, a 944 can actually corner faster than a 911. Given the difference in weight distribution, I don't find that hard to believe.

Nice ride!

Tom W

I think it's a pretty reasonable question. I went through the decision process about 6 months ago when I bought my 964.

While I'm lucky enough to be able to buy a more expensive car, I decided a 964 or 993 was more than enough car, and I needed to work on the "nut behind the wheel" more than the car. A 964 is a great car to learn to dive in. Yes, you can "buy" faster lap times with more horsepower, but I felt that until I was able to consistently obtain lap times that were as good as very experienced drivers, the money was better spent on more events as opposed to "more car."

The logic can be extended to earlier model 911's or spec Miata's, but I wanted a car that handled like my 993 cabriolet daily driver and not a whole different beast. It's also damn hard to tolerate a "lesser" car once you get spoiled. I'm planning to avoid driving a GT3 or turbo for a few more years as my willpower to resist is weak - I initially insisted that I was not going to do many mods to the 964 and work on the driver too, that didn't work out too well.

I know what BGL means with respect to the reduced performance at altitude. I lived at 8500 feet in the mountains above Boulder for 5 years. While the 325i we had at the time suffered some from the altitude, so did every other car up there. Isn't there also an optional altitude compensation device that can be added to the 964? (While maybe not as fun, it's a simpler fix than buying a turbo )

Julian Thompson

Guys - just a small point.

I come from Caterham R400 owning background to my 964RS.

The R400 would simply DESTROY the Porsche around ANY circuit given similar driver abilities. Please let there be no doubt about this.

However...

I sold the R400 because I just didn't get chance to use it much as it was a track biased, Aeroscreened monster - I had a very expensive car sat there depreciating and because Andrea wouldn't go near it I hardly used it on the road.

The 964 has the best all round package anywhere as far as i'm concerned - it is devastatingly effective on the road, tremendous fun, great to own, fast enough on the track and gives a sense of occasion like no other every time I slide behind that quirky, "RS" monikered helm!

Oh, yes, and I forgot to mention that I have wanted one since I was 17!

BGLeduc

Not sure about the 964, but a lot of modern cars have atmospheric pressure sensors. My previous ride (a Integra Type R) had one, IIRC. And it too went like a scalded cat when I took it to San Diego.

Unfortunately, all these sensors do is fine tunes things a bit; they really can't replace the air density. Ahhh, if only they could!

There is a fellow in my local PCA region with a 944T that I will normally wax at any parking lot AutoX, but we have taken to doing events at our local track, which has a couple climbs following some tight corners. And lets just say we seem to have developed a shortage of cones.

On a wide open track, he and I are very, very close. I will concede that he is more comfortable on a real track than I am, but where he is absolutely eating my lunch is running up those uphill sections.

In fact, most Turbo cars that run with us will tend to show really well (Audi S4, WRX's, MR2 Turbos). I freakin' hate it when that happens

BGL

Tom W

Where is there a track in the ABQ area? I've been there a few times as my folks lived in Taylor Ranch before moving to Belen, but I've never seen any evidence of a track.

JoeW

I was thinking about this question this morning in fact. I've always been a performance car shopper and sometimes have kept a car for considerably less than a year, just because I would get bored with the ride.

I finally decided to get the Porsche I've wanted since I was 11 years old and, in the process, drove 996s, Boxsters, 993s, a couple of 80s 911s, and 15 964s. A little overkill, maybe, but I think I have a good car out of it, and I know it is a car I very much want and enjoy driving -- look forward to it even as I type this -- and I haven't been tempted to even drive a non-Porsche since I started looking at them.

Sure there are a couple of cars that would tempt me: an Elise, a 246GTS Dino maybe ... but that's about it.

So far as turbos are concerned, like several of you I'm several hundred hours away from mastering what I've got. Locally, we have a fella with a lovely Turbo who can't drive worth c**p and everyone knows it. I don't want to be like that. If I get to the point when I'm ready, we'll see ... but as of now, I think I'll keep the 964 to drive .... can't see a reason for anything else unless it's going to ride on a trailer. Joe W.

BGLeduc

They opened it a few years ago. Its on the west side, out beyond 9 mile hill, just off of the 40.

Its a small (1/2 mile?) oval, and a road course. Here's a link:

http://www.sandiamotorsports.com/about.htm

She's a technical little b*tch, that for sure, with some decent elevation changes. Fun to drive. IIRC, the last time they ran a One Lap of America (or maybe the time before that?) they had an event there organized by Denise Mcluggage of Autoweek fame.

If your so inclined we are having our annual Fiesta del Porsche Memorial Day Weekend, which will include an autocross at the track. Here's a link for that:

http://www.roadrunner-region-pca.org/calend.htm#may

I will now return the thread to its original purpose.

BGL