garrett376

I've been bitten by the 964 bug and am considering selling the trusty and loved 1965 911 vintage race car for a cheap Carerra2 or 4 to use for racing. I just love the stable handling of the 964 platform - the 65 is one tail-happy car and now that I'm older/wiser/wimpier - I want a more stable & safer car on the track.

I've seen some here in Southern Cal for about 18,000, but these all have so many miles - 100-180,000.

One has 185,000 miles!!! On an un-rebuilt engine, is this an unwise purchase - will I get no miles out of the existing engine and tranny? How long have you guys seen these things last?? I know one renlister has 120K miles and counting without problems. And how about the chassis?

I want to take advantage of the poor "seller's market" for the 964's to get myself a fun car for racing before people realize how awesome these cars are!

What do you guys advise regarding the high-mileage cars? Waste of money?? I was surprised to see some with that many miles. Wow! Are these things as reliable as the 3.0liter 911's? I want a car to drive to the track and race, just like I do with my 1965.

Thanks for your thoughts as usual!

Arjan B.

As we saw before, the rebuild of a 964 was mainly for oil leaks. A few engines had mechanical problems,but most of them where torn apart because oil leaks who where getting annoying.
I have a 163000 km on the thing [102000 miles] and she runs lik new. As I looked at he camshafts while I worked on the engine back in November, all looked brand new. I did a oil lab test before the maintenance, and the result was a normal wear indication.

I think you need a bit of luck there, for my car I know for sure It had a good maintenance all his lif at the official Porsche Dealer, and I think that's very important for a engine.

There are a few other Rennlisters with high milage cars and without rebuilts.
Let's give it a shot!

DavidI

I'm on 119k miles without a rebuild. I paid around $18k because of poor paint and dodgy service history and budgeted for an engine rebuild though the car sailed through a 24k service last month - I got lucky mechanically.

IMO these cars can cost fortunes in so many areas (see John B's recent post) that you are taking more of a chance trying to buy a pristine example. As a 964 owner it should be possible to avoid a dog and find a suitable example in need of some TLC at a rock-bottom price that would be perfect for racing. Just like buying the road car however you can't know for sure how long the engine/clutch/gearbox/diffs are going to last. If you're unlucky you could spend another $10k - and now you've got a mechanically perfect 964 for under $30k. If you get lucky, this is unbelievably great value motoring! I think people paying $30k for a perfect looking car are the ones taking chances at the moment - you have pretty much the same chance of needing to spend a further $10k and that's money that will never be seen again

JoeW

Not so sure I agree with this part of your response, David ... assuming the $30k buys more than cosmetics, of course. Generalizing of course, the car that needs $10k to bring it up to snuff is a victim of deferred maintenance, and deferred maintenance is like dominoes: consequences you can't see until quite a way down the line. There could easily be even more than $10k lurking under there!

The $30k car with the nice cosmetics (and a good PPI), however, has those nice cosmetics as a result of an attentive owner, and the nice cosmetics are a symptom of up-to-date care as well as of low mileage.

All that said, if a car is high mileage and well-maintained (Arjan's would be an example) I think it would be desirable, not just acceptable.

By the way, your sig is great! Joe W.

joey bagadonuts

I love the idea. My suggestion is to find something ... well ... like my car: solid maintenance records and with good-quality mods. I think these cars scare off a lot of potential buyers. There still seems to be an affinty for completely stock cars which makes these mod jobs a terrific bargain.

I remember seeing a well-equipped 964 autocrosser on the market a few years back and it lingered for quite a while. This C2 had H&R Supercup coilovers, chip, cup pipe, LWF, race seats, etc. and an asking price in the mid 20's. Miles were in the 50-70K range. Anyone remember this car? The couple who owned it ran it at the '02 Parade autocross in Boise.

Of course the best value is a fully prepped race car with all the high-dollar mods already paid for but a nice C2 race car probably goes for over $30K ... easily! I think the approach is the same, however. Find a car that someone's invested heavily in for DE or autocross and see if you can get it for low to mid 20's.

It's not just the clutch and rebuild which will put a dent in your wallet--it's all those go-fast goodies, as well.

Jay H

I would wager that the chassis of the 964 is pretty tough (just like prior models) and can handle quite a few miles.

I would think that a properly maintained, street driven car with over 100k on the clock could give some more service on the track. Again, any candidate would have to have a pretty thorough PPI and with any used car that's out of factory warranty, it's always a bit of a gamble.

The good thing about a high mile car is that the cosmetics usually are showing some age so some track wear and tear is usually not as detrimental as on a low mileage car.

Our own Jeff Curtis could probably shed some more light on this subject!

Jay
90 964

joey bagadonuts

Oops, I may have overestimated the price on C2 racers. There's an E class stock car on the PCA website with 102K miles and an asking price of $30K. Here's the copy:Buy it! Buy it!

Edit: It looks like the same car is also featured in the RENNLIST CLASSIFIEDS, too! (sorry, John D )

garrett376

Joey, funny you found that - I have emailed the owner for the spec sheets and received them several days ago, but that one is too far "over the line". I need a car that's still streetable as well, so I can drive it to the track. I love driving to the track in my race car - done it for 10 years and it's fun that way! That's all I can afford, besides! Wife won't let me put a tow hitch on her truck!!

That car won't make CA emissions, even though it's really darn sweet!! And, $30,000 is more than I am aiming for especially for a car with that mileage! That's more than my C4!!!

garrett376

can I really give this up for a magnificent 964...?

joey bagadonuts

That IS a cool car!

You're in a good position, though. Just take the C4 around the track and see if that big torque isn't all it's cracked up to be. I'll bet everyone will be saying, "Did you see that fast cab?" And then you'll be hooked.

scottwelker

good luck with your decision process, Garrett.

all i can say is that my 964 has 124K miles and still runs like the wind, without any rebuilds and just routine maintenance.

the body and interior are also in very good condition.

its certainly possible to get a great deal on the 964s and late 80's SC. just do lots of research and comparisons to ensure you get your money's worth on a well maintained car.

Ebay is always a good place to start for quick comparables.

keep us posted on what you decide to do.

PS. your current 911 looks pretty sweet! she'll be hard to replace, but we're sure you'll be able to if you do enough research.

DavidI

That's really my argument Joe; I've yet to come across a PPI that I would trust to spot a 964 engine/clutch/gearbox/diff rebuild imminent in 5k miles. That being the case why not buy cheap and budget for the rebuild rather than buying dear and crossing your fingers.

Of course your point is as valid on a 964 as any car, and all the good guides say spend as much as you can. There's just something odd about the 964 where a low-mileage pristine one is a quality Porsche and a high-mileage scruffy one is a bag of bolts! There can't be many cars with as wide a chasm in prices!

Thanks for the comments on the sig - I should amend it as the 964 is almost back in one piece and now that spring is sprung the old RR is just about driveable with the windows up

Christian K

I think you make a lot of sense, especially for someone who plan to track a lot and/or don't pay much attention to the cosmetic shape of the car. However, when I paid premium for a low milage car, I did it not because I think it will be more reliable engine- or transmissionwise. I did it because it feels like a new car inside and out and will keep doing so for quite a while if I look after it. Very, very few high milage cars have the new car feeling, and once a car starts feeling "shabby", there's no turning back.

And Garett. As much as I love the 964, your vintage race car is absolutely awesome. If you get rid of it I think you will regret it later.

cheers

Christian

Anatol

I have thought about selling my 964 for a 2.4 S quite often already. However, I have not brought myself to sell my beloved street racer. So, the other way round I have gone through the same process.
As for longevity, my 1991 C2 has had a cylinder head problem at 100'000 km and I have had it rebuilt with new cylinder heads, gaskets etc. Due to emissions regulations I have refrained from using the opportunity for a hotter cam or 3.8l conversion.
It was costly, premature, annoying but worth it: the stalling problem (lwf !) is gone and the power is there (290 bhp).

garrett376

Christian, my wife says the same thing; she's upset I'd want to sell it. If I could have the 65, AND a 964 race car, AND a C4 cabrio for a daily driver, then there would be no problem!!! Doug H -how do you do it??!!! Therefore, something's gotta' give, and the 65 gets driven at races only for the most part, since the cage is hard to get in and out of! I love the C4 cabrio, and it's mechanically and cosmetically perfect at 49K miles. I have not put the top up in weeks!!


For racing, I want a car that will deal with bumps and bruises better than a 65. If I kiss someone on the track, I'd be less sad if it was a durable 964 versus the irreplaceable 911. Not that that should ever happen, but just thinking ahead. I also feel that a 964 would be a safer car to race - more metal, better brake reserve, more predictable handling.

DavidI, I agree with you about PPI's - they help, but it's not a sure thing to find out the big problems. Knock on wood, but my C4 is an excellent car - perfect shape. I got lucky since I bought it purely on emotion! No PPI, and it was before I knew a lot about these cars. Ahh, luck! Or Someone was watching over me....