Cooper Avon ZZR?
01-12-2004, 10:16 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
Christer
I've got them on my M3 (E30). I've been pretty impressed, though they felt strange to begin with (can't remember what they replaced). I think the sidewall rigidity was different. I played around with tyre pressures and they now feel spot on.
I put them on the M3 because they were cheap; the M3 gets through rear tyres very quickly because of the extreme negative camber - wears the insides v quickly.
I'm not sure I'd use them again though. The Kumhos on the 964 feel much better.
For the 964 then, I think I'd either stick with the Kumho, or try Toyo Proxes.
I've got them on my M3 (E30). I've been pretty impressed, though they felt strange to begin with (can't remember what they replaced). I think the sidewall rigidity was different. I played around with tyre pressures and they now feel spot on.
I put them on the M3 because they were cheap; the M3 gets through rear tyres very quickly because of the extreme negative camber - wears the insides v quickly.
I'm not sure I'd use them again though. The Kumhos on the 964 feel much better.
For the 964 then, I think I'd either stick with the Kumho, or try Toyo Proxes.
01-12-2004, 10:32 AM
#3
Race Car
Thread Starter
Hi Rob
Happy New Year and all that.
I need new rears, so I will get some more 712's for now - I am not going to buy 4 new ones, especially now it is winter. I still keep my eyes open though, and maybe MPSC's are the next thing. How do the Cups perform in the wet? Are they downright dangerous?
Happy New Year and all that.
I need new rears, so I will get some more 712's for now - I am not going to buy 4 new ones, especially now it is winter. I still keep my eyes open though, and maybe MPSC's are the next thing. How do the Cups perform in the wet? Are they downright dangerous?
01-12-2004, 10:57 AM
#5
Race Car
Thread Starter
Not that I am at all unhappy with the 712's - but following Dave K's comment that they seem to have less grip in the wet than his SO2's used to have I might look at something else in the future, and semi-slicks may be on the cards...
01-12-2004, 11:34 AM
#6
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I have some ZZ1s. They seem fine at the moment, although there is an issue with Avon tyres getting very noisy with age. I recently drove a 968 with Avons and it sounded like the wheelbearings are shot, but when we swapped the wheels the noise disappeared.
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01-12-2004, 06:18 PM
#8
Race Car
Thread Starter
Dave
Yes, I know - my thought process was not exactly well documented in the above posts. Looking away from possible options that would improve allround performance, I might look at some semi-slicks since I obviously do not drive that hard in the wet anyway, I just wanted to know whether they were completely treacherous or what...
Tony, do you use MSPC's in the wet (when you have to)? How do they behave (or not as the case may be).
Yes, I know - my thought process was not exactly well documented in the above posts. Looking away from possible options that would improve allround performance, I might look at some semi-slicks since I obviously do not drive that hard in the wet anyway, I just wanted to know whether they were completely treacherous or what...
Tony, do you use MSPC's in the wet (when you have to)? How do they behave (or not as the case may be).
01-12-2004, 08:01 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
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Christer,
Obviously I do use the MSPC`s in the wet when I have to but if I have a choice I use the SO2`s.
The MSPC`s aquaplane badly in heavy rain and are IMHO comicaly bad and grip is much worse in any wet conditions. It`s worth noting grip is also poor when cold compared to road tyres.
MPSC`s mean a second set of wheels as far as I`m concerned.
I wrote this some tome ago, hope it helps,
I`m stuck at home and have decided to write a comparison of my experience comparing road,- Bridgestone SO2 Pole Position and trackday, Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on my 964C2. Car is as described below:
AMD custom chip, Mass Air Flow kit and enlarged throttle body. Cat bypass, Blueflame custom silencers. Dyno`d at 298 bhp.
RS flywheel and clutch. 993RS 6spd gearbox.
H+R coilovers lowered approx 35mm
Carrera cups with 17 205/50 and 255/40 Bridgestone SO2 and RUF Speedlines with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups 17 225/45 and 255/40
993tt F calipers 965 discs 965 R callipers 951(RS) discs, Pagid yellow pads
Recaro SPG seats
Weight reduced by approx 75kg
On Track,
Tyre pressures; I run the MSPCS at 32psi hot and the SO2`s at 36psi hot
In the dry when hot the MSPC`s offer considerably more grip than the SO2`s with measurably shorter braking distances and clearly higher corner speeds than the SO2`s ( or the previous Pirelli PO`s) giving higher speeds on the straights. No great surprise as that is the remit of the MSPC.
Once hot the MSPC pressures remain constant within a small margin at 32psi and don`t need any further adjustment through out the day. ( I check pressures after each session). If I`m doing more than one day in a week or back to back week-ends I don’t alter the tyre pressures at home and find that after the first session on the new day they have reached working pressure (32psi). I find this pressure stability keeps the cars handling characteristics constant through out the day. When hot I find MSPC`s handling excellent, breakaway point is to judge and when passed the tyres just want to grip again, slides are progressive and I have always felt confidant that they were in control and grip would be resumed shortly, all of which allows driving right upto (and slightly beyond) the tyres max grip.
The problem with the SO2`s in the dry is that they tend to overheat; this leads to quite dramatic pressure increase in the tyres which changes their handling characteristics equally dramatically. Worse still is that the pressure increases are not equal tyre to tyre but increase more front to rear (braking ?) and outside ( of the track) to inside which does cause instability. SO2 tyre pressures can be difficult to equalise. The overheating of the SO2`s also causes the tyre to melt causing rubber to chunk of and decreasing the tyres grip – this also tends to occur in an unequal way tyre to tyre altering the cars handling. When overheated SO2 breakaway quite quickly and I find them difficult to recover from.
In the rain the SO2`s provide excellent grip and predictable handling. I`ve done trackdays in the rain were hardly anything has passed me all day on SO2`s ( sad to say more a reflection on the tyre). Moreover the tyre doesn`t overheat and pressures remain constant. The water probably acts as a coolant keeping temperatures and pressures down. SO2`s handling in the wet is more predictable than when hot in the dry with breakaway being gentle and recoverable (assuming I haven`t completely overdone it) The MSPC`s have insufficient tread pattern for water clearance and are hopeless in rain heavy enough to see splashes on the track, aquaplaning on braking, cornering, and acceleration. If its raining I won`t go out on MSPC`s.
No suprises in the above that MSPC`s are great in the dry and SO2`s in the rain, however both MSPC`s and SO2`s have problems with damp cold tracks; the SO2`s starting to overheat and the MSPC`s not, IMHO, reaching working temperatures. I don`t have a tyre pyrometer but using tyre pressures as a (approximate) guide to working temp`s I`m of the opinion they don`t reach optimum working temps in the damp; - they don`t feel as sticky to touch and the tyre pressures are 3-4psi less than I would expect in the dry. Moreover buttometer and speeds indicate noticeable performance drops and tyre breakaway is more sudden (MSPC). On balance I find if there`s water visible on the track SO2, a dry line MSPC.
On Road,
I have never driven as hard on the road as I do on track and it would be illegal and unsafe to do so, but even spirited (and illegal in the UK) driving in the dry doesn`t cause the SO2`s to overheat or pass their levels of grip by any worthwhile margin.
I have mixed feelings on the MSPC`s; in heavy rain I consider them of marginal safety with caution required. In the damp/cold they drive satisfactorily but my experience with them at the track always leaves me with doubts as to what would happen in an extreme/emergency manoeuvre. In the dry they have great grip when warm but the odd wheel spin early in journeys leads me to believe they do need to warm up whereas the SO2`s don’t. A 35-mile trip to the track will only raise pressures to 29-30psi if set at 32psi on a previous trackday indicating optimum-working temps is not reached on the road.
Wear,
The MSPC`s have done 5k miles 2k on track and are at the wear indicators, the SO2`s have done 6k miles 1k on track and still have more tread than the MSPC`s started with.
The ride and noise suppression is also worse with MSPC`s.
Of course YMMV
Obviously I do use the MSPC`s in the wet when I have to but if I have a choice I use the SO2`s.
The MSPC`s aquaplane badly in heavy rain and are IMHO comicaly bad and grip is much worse in any wet conditions. It`s worth noting grip is also poor when cold compared to road tyres.
MPSC`s mean a second set of wheels as far as I`m concerned.
I wrote this some tome ago, hope it helps,
I`m stuck at home and have decided to write a comparison of my experience comparing road,- Bridgestone SO2 Pole Position and trackday, Michelin Pilot Sport Cups on my 964C2. Car is as described below:
AMD custom chip, Mass Air Flow kit and enlarged throttle body. Cat bypass, Blueflame custom silencers. Dyno`d at 298 bhp.
RS flywheel and clutch. 993RS 6spd gearbox.
H+R coilovers lowered approx 35mm
Carrera cups with 17 205/50 and 255/40 Bridgestone SO2 and RUF Speedlines with Michelin Pilot Sport Cups 17 225/45 and 255/40
993tt F calipers 965 discs 965 R callipers 951(RS) discs, Pagid yellow pads
Recaro SPG seats
Weight reduced by approx 75kg
On Track,
Tyre pressures; I run the MSPCS at 32psi hot and the SO2`s at 36psi hot
In the dry when hot the MSPC`s offer considerably more grip than the SO2`s with measurably shorter braking distances and clearly higher corner speeds than the SO2`s ( or the previous Pirelli PO`s) giving higher speeds on the straights. No great surprise as that is the remit of the MSPC.
Once hot the MSPC pressures remain constant within a small margin at 32psi and don`t need any further adjustment through out the day. ( I check pressures after each session). If I`m doing more than one day in a week or back to back week-ends I don’t alter the tyre pressures at home and find that after the first session on the new day they have reached working pressure (32psi). I find this pressure stability keeps the cars handling characteristics constant through out the day. When hot I find MSPC`s handling excellent, breakaway point is to judge and when passed the tyres just want to grip again, slides are progressive and I have always felt confidant that they were in control and grip would be resumed shortly, all of which allows driving right upto (and slightly beyond) the tyres max grip.
The problem with the SO2`s in the dry is that they tend to overheat; this leads to quite dramatic pressure increase in the tyres which changes their handling characteristics equally dramatically. Worse still is that the pressure increases are not equal tyre to tyre but increase more front to rear (braking ?) and outside ( of the track) to inside which does cause instability. SO2 tyre pressures can be difficult to equalise. The overheating of the SO2`s also causes the tyre to melt causing rubber to chunk of and decreasing the tyres grip – this also tends to occur in an unequal way tyre to tyre altering the cars handling. When overheated SO2 breakaway quite quickly and I find them difficult to recover from.
In the rain the SO2`s provide excellent grip and predictable handling. I`ve done trackdays in the rain were hardly anything has passed me all day on SO2`s ( sad to say more a reflection on the tyre). Moreover the tyre doesn`t overheat and pressures remain constant. The water probably acts as a coolant keeping temperatures and pressures down. SO2`s handling in the wet is more predictable than when hot in the dry with breakaway being gentle and recoverable (assuming I haven`t completely overdone it) The MSPC`s have insufficient tread pattern for water clearance and are hopeless in rain heavy enough to see splashes on the track, aquaplaning on braking, cornering, and acceleration. If its raining I won`t go out on MSPC`s.
No suprises in the above that MSPC`s are great in the dry and SO2`s in the rain, however both MSPC`s and SO2`s have problems with damp cold tracks; the SO2`s starting to overheat and the MSPC`s not, IMHO, reaching working temperatures. I don`t have a tyre pyrometer but using tyre pressures as a (approximate) guide to working temp`s I`m of the opinion they don`t reach optimum working temps in the damp; - they don`t feel as sticky to touch and the tyre pressures are 3-4psi less than I would expect in the dry. Moreover buttometer and speeds indicate noticeable performance drops and tyre breakaway is more sudden (MSPC). On balance I find if there`s water visible on the track SO2, a dry line MSPC.
On Road,
I have never driven as hard on the road as I do on track and it would be illegal and unsafe to do so, but even spirited (and illegal in the UK) driving in the dry doesn`t cause the SO2`s to overheat or pass their levels of grip by any worthwhile margin.
I have mixed feelings on the MSPC`s; in heavy rain I consider them of marginal safety with caution required. In the damp/cold they drive satisfactorily but my experience with them at the track always leaves me with doubts as to what would happen in an extreme/emergency manoeuvre. In the dry they have great grip when warm but the odd wheel spin early in journeys leads me to believe they do need to warm up whereas the SO2`s don’t. A 35-mile trip to the track will only raise pressures to 29-30psi if set at 32psi on a previous trackday indicating optimum-working temps is not reached on the road.
Wear,
The MSPC`s have done 5k miles 2k on track and are at the wear indicators, the SO2`s have done 6k miles 1k on track and still have more tread than the MSPC`s started with.
The ride and noise suppression is also worse with MSPC`s.
Of course YMMV
01-12-2004, 09:12 PM
#10
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Another popular and inexpensive option are the Yoko AVS ES100's. I saw one Bimmer driver put them to good use on the track last summer ... very impressive stick. At $450 for the set, I'm tempted.
Ah well, next time!
01-13-2004, 04:37 AM
#12
Race Car
Thread Starter
Wow - thanks Tony for the in depth summary, that was what I needed.
I don't think I am going to go with SO2's next time, I don't drive hard in the wet anyway. I am wondering how the standard Michelin Pilot Sports, the SO3's and the Toyo Proxes compare with SO2's in dry/wet...anyone have any comparisons on that one?
Rua, I also heard that the Yok ES100's were pretty good - but I don't remember where.
I don't think I am going to go with SO2's next time, I don't drive hard in the wet anyway. I am wondering how the standard Michelin Pilot Sports, the SO3's and the Toyo Proxes compare with SO2's in dry/wet...anyone have any comparisons on that one?
Rua, I also heard that the Yok ES100's were pretty good - but I don't remember where.
01-13-2004, 08:47 AM
#13
Drifting
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Christer
don't know about wet road comparisons, but my toyo's in the rear lasted about 6k miles - the fronts still have LOTS of tread after 14 k miles. Hower, at £100/tyre fitted, wear isn't too great a problem. I don't notice ant problems with dry or wet grip, but I have no yardstick for comparison, as I have always had the Toyos after Adrian's glowing report.
don't know about wet road comparisons, but my toyo's in the rear lasted about 6k miles - the fronts still have LOTS of tread after 14 k miles. Hower, at £100/tyre fitted, wear isn't too great a problem. I don't notice ant problems with dry or wet grip, but I have no yardstick for comparison, as I have always had the Toyos after Adrian's glowing report.
01-14-2004, 03:33 PM
#14
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Originally posted by robmug
Christer
I've got them on my M3 (E30). I've been pretty impressed, though they felt strange to begin with (can't remember what they replaced). I think the sidewall rigidity was different. I played around with tyre pressures and they now feel spot on.
I put them on the M3 because they were cheap; the M3 gets through rear tyres very quickly because of the extreme negative camber - wears the insides v quickly.
I'm not sure I'd use them again though. The Kumhos on the 964 feel much better.
For the 964 then, I think I'd either stick with the Kumho, or try Toyo Proxes.
Christer
I've got them on my M3 (E30). I've been pretty impressed, though they felt strange to begin with (can't remember what they replaced). I think the sidewall rigidity was different. I played around with tyre pressures and they now feel spot on.
I put them on the M3 because they were cheap; the M3 gets through rear tyres very quickly because of the extreme negative camber - wears the insides v quickly.
I'm not sure I'd use them again though. The Kumhos on the 964 feel much better.
For the 964 then, I think I'd either stick with the Kumho, or try Toyo Proxes.
01-14-2004, 04:51 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
...ah.
I made this post whilst my M3 was at home in the garage and I was at work.
Just checked and it appears I have Avon ZZ1 tyres. My comments still apply (obviously) but no longer bear ANY relevance to this thread!
Oh well...I hope some of my posts are relevant!
I made this post whilst my M3 was at home in the garage and I was at work.
Just checked and it appears I have Avon ZZ1 tyres. My comments still apply (obviously) but no longer bear ANY relevance to this thread!
Oh well...I hope some of my posts are relevant!