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How many owners have the Engine Cover Undertray with heat shields installed on your car? The reason I ask, when I bought my 1990 C2 Coupe manual drive back in '08 those items were no longer with the car. As I've restored many faults with the car through the years I've come to notice most of the other 964s I've looked at don't have them present but few still do. Regarding preservation of value should I ever sell the car how many folks think this will be a problem? I've sourced a new undertray but just to get the rest of the components to reattach to the car will still cost a pretty penny. I'm wondering is it really necessary since many of cars appear to have removed them by their owner or PO. What's your opinion giving the current state of the market should I ever decide to sell? Here's a couple pics to show those items I'm referring too.
There isn't one person in their right mind that would want to buy a 964 that they intend to drive, that has the tray on. (Exaggeration for effect)
If your car has 5k original miles and you intend to sell it to a museum. Yes you need the original parts.
If you intend to sell it to someone that drives, these parts are detrimental to the sale.
Example- if i show up to look at one, and i see the tray, i assume first that the owner has no clue, and second that i need to dig deeper to make sure that certain things have been taken care of over time and that damage hasn't been done by trapping the heat. Sooooo- long story short. Hang your tray on your wall and pass it to the next owner. But don't go too far in sourcing parts. It's not going to help the value to have them.
I leave the undertray installed on my 1990 C2 but I doubt *not* having the undertray will really impact value. Maybe it would for some buyers but it wasn't on my list when I was looking. However, personally the heat shields around the side seem like a good idea to keep installed; they protect the cylinder heads from direct-radiated catalytic converter and exhaust heat.
Last edited by jonathant; 07-13-2018 at 02:33 PM.
Reason: grammar
There isn't one person in their right mind that would want to buy a 964 that they intend to drive, that has the tray on. (Exaggeration for effect)
If your car has 5k original miles and you intend to sell it to a museum. Yes you need the original parts.
If you intend to sell it to someone that drives, these parts are detrimental to the sale.
Example- if i show up to look at one, and i see the tray, i assume first that the owner has no clue, and second that i need to dig deeper to make sure that certain things have been taken care of over time and that damage hasn't been done by trapping the heat. Sooooo- long story short. Hang your tray on your wall and pass it to the next owner. But don't go too far in sourcing parts. It's not going to help the value to have them.
That's the bottom line I want to know. Will it impact the values? I for one have no desire to trap any heat while I'm the owner not to mention the additional weight. But only concern is will this be a sticking point when someone attempts to get you to back off the price for any perceived issue they can find to complain about.
Engine tray on or off is 2nd behind an oil discussion... however, the heat shields are worth sourcing. My '89 came with them all, including the tray, albeit it was a garage trophy. I did refurbish the heat shields when I set the valves.
Engine tray on or off is 2nd behind an oil discussion... however, the heat shields are worth sourcing. My '89 came with them all, including the tray, albeit it was a garage trophy. I did refurbish the heat shields when I set the valves.
How much do those heat shield weigh? I'm guessing our air-cooled engines will run cooler without them, and I was planning on removing mine. Is there any real down-side to this other than some exposure to road debris?
How much do those heat shield weigh? I'm guessing our air-cooled engines will run cooler without them, and I was planning on removing mine. Is there any real down-side to this other than some exposure to road debris?
I’m not a weight weenie, unless I am on my bike Does the engine run hotter or cooler with or without the shields? Dunno. And I’m too scared to say!
How many owners have the Engine Cover Undertray with heat shields installed on your car? The reason I ask, when I bought my 1990 C2 Coupe manual drive back in '08 those items were no longer with the car. As I've restored many faults with the car through the years I've come to notice most of the other 964s I've looked at don't have them present but few still do.
The engine tray was long gone on my first 964, and who knows what other brackets and bolts that were attach to it. The prior owner of my second 964, reinstalled the tray just before the transfer of ownership, as a way of making the car complete. I thought that was through and classy (thanks Rudy). I was glad he didn’t have it on the car (because of heat), but glad it was still with the car.
Originally Posted by Goughary
There isn't one person in their right mind that would want to buy a 964 that they intend to drive, that has the tray on. (Exaggeration for effect)
If your car has 5k original miles and you intend to sell it to a museum. Yes you need the original parts.
If you intend to sell it to someone that drives, these parts are detrimental to the sale.
Example- if i show up to look at one, and i see the tray, i assume first that the owner has no clue, and second that i need to dig deeper to make sure that certain things have been taken care of over time and that damage hasn't been done by trapping the heat. Sooooo- long story short. Hang your tray on your wall and pass it to the next owner. But don't go too far in sourcing parts. It's not going to help the value to have them.
+1. Nailed it
Originally Posted by jonathant
I leave the undertray installed on my 1990 C2 but I doubt *not* having the undertray will really impact value. Maybe it would for some buyers but it wasn't on my list when I was looking...
+1. I except most cars to not have it installed, slightly scared if it’s been on the whole time (trapping heat). My dad had one on his car until recently, trapping all kinds of leaked oil.
Originally Posted by Mainja
That's the bottom line I want to know. Will it impact the values? I for one have no desire to trap any heat while I'm the owner not to mention the additional weight. But only concern is will this be a sticking point when someone attempts to get you to back off the price for any perceived issue they can find to complain about.
I could be wrong, but no buyer is going to have a chance to beat me up on the sale because of this. Happy to let them look for another 964...
Originally Posted by Spokes
...My '89 came with them all, including the tray, albeit it was a garage trophy. I did refurbish the heat shields when I set the valves...
My understanding is that the car needs the heat shields, as it’s part of the design to pull air from the top motor and push it down and out from under the car. Heat schields help with the vacuum.
Your wall trophy comment reminds me that I need to pick mine up from the shop, I asked them to not reinstall it after their first service on the car. Keep forgetting!
My car didn’t have a tray when I purchased it. Found a used one and installed it a couple of months back. The car runs a little warmer with the tray, and it might catch a drop of oil on the right side. Most of the attachment points were still there, missing 2 nut plates and fasteners. Try it on the car and take it off if you don’t like it. Takes ten minutes.
There isn't one person in their right mind that would want to buy a 964 that they intend to drive, that has the tray on. (Exaggeration for effect)
If your car has 5k original miles and you intend to sell it to a museum. Yes you need the original parts.
If you intend to sell it to someone that drives, these parts are detrimental to the sale.
Example- if i show up to look at one, and i see the tray, i assume first that the owner has no clue, and second that i need to dig deeper to make sure that certain things have been taken care of over time and that damage hasn't been done by trapping the heat. Sooooo- long story short. Hang your tray on your wall and pass it to the next owner. But don't go too far in sourcing parts. It's not going to help the value to have them.
^^^ this ^^^
engine tray impact on value? omg i thought this crap only gets discussed on the 991 gt3/rs forum
Is there any real down-side to this other than some exposure to road debris?
The heat radiating from the catalytic converter and secondary exhaust
is 500-800F degrees hotter than your valve covers! At the very least your exhaust side spark plug connectors and wires will thank you...
With the lower undertray attached (and measured via thermocouples) you only see a 5F degree increase (averaged) in CHT at idle and no difference while the 964 is moving...
Just an addendum to what i said earlier- i was only speaking about the bottom tray. You have to have the side and rearward heat shields. I have sourced and put those on quite a few cars now that didn't have them. I also swap out all the cat deletes and sport cats with no shields for a sport cat or oem with shields. For me, that's just kind of a safety issue since we regularly park in grass around here.
The only thing i remove is the bottom tray and any leftover sound insulation from the factory. Cuz packing foam around an air cooled engine - seriously the guys at the factory must have been waving good bye to the cars and saying out the sides of their mouths "good luck"...
Engine tray on or off is 2nd behind an oil discussion... however, the heat shields are worth sourcing. My '89 came with them all, including the tray, albeit it was a garage trophy. I did refurbish the heat shields when I set the valves.
Are your heat shields for sale by chance? Problem with sourcing is it's adding up quick at today's prices and looking for which brackets are necessary to mount each one. PET catalog is a good start, but with all those items missing I'm trying to get decent pictures to see what I needed. I wish the PO would have left the heat shields in place and just removed the undertray.
Originally Posted by Streetdaddy
When i got my 964 they said it didn’t leak much oil at all. It had the tray on. When i took it off it was full of oil and car leaked quite a bit!
May definitely be why they were removed in the first place by PO. I have a few areas to address once the AC is repaired.
Originally Posted by 911Jetta
My understanding is that the car needs the heat shields, as it’s part of the design to pull air from the top motor and push it down and out from under the car. Heat shields help with the vacuum.
Good point 911 Jetta, note taken.
Originally Posted by golfnutintib
^^^ this ^^^
engine tray impact on value? omg i thought this crap only gets discussed on the 991 gt3/rs forum
Well considering I took on this particular car with some restoration needs instead of buying one already in perfect condition back in 2008 at a great price. After relocating back to Florida and my work occupying my time with travel for the last 4 years the car wasn't given proper attention. Then realized from 2015 to present prices flew through the roof. I was shocked at the results.
So at this point, I'm just trying to pick up where I left her in the restoration process. But with those inflated prices the parts became like gold or something. So at this point, I want to ensure I put money to use where it needs to be and not on items that may not merit the attention. The car isn't going anywhere since she still my pride and joy. But I'm not going to be an idiot if someone ever offers me a price that would be too stupid to pass up. But until then I want to get her back to her prime.
Originally Posted by JasonAndreas
The heat radiating from the catalytic converter and secondary exhaust is 500-800F degrees hotter than your valve covers! At the very least your exhaust side spark plug connectors and wires will thank you...With the lower undertray attached (and measured via thermocouples) you only see a 5F degree increase (averaged) in CHT at idle and no difference while the 964 is moving...
Thank you, Jason, for the technical aspects of the heat effects on the more sensitive components, I like your photos it really does give perspective on what damage can result over time. This alone may motivate me to find those replacement heat shields. Thanks again.
Just an addendum to what i said earlier- i was only speaking about the bottom tray. You have to have the side and rearward heat shields. I have sourced and put those on quite a few cars now that didn't have them. I also swap out all the cat deletes and sport cats with no shields for a sport cat or oem with shields. For me, that's just kind of a safety issue since we regularly park in grass around here.
The only thing i remove is the bottom tray and any leftover sound insulation from the factory. Cuz packing foam around an air cooled engine - seriously the guys at the factory must have been waving good bye to the cars and saying out the sides of their mouths "good luck"...
I think you right that the heat shields need to be restored at a minimum. Now if I could just get some help with detailed photos of them in place on someone else's car for comparison.
07-13-2018, 02:18 PM
964 Cars without Engine Under tray Installed
Does the engine run hotter or cooler with or without the shields? Dunno. And I’m too scared to say!
