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Does anyone know the paint code/name for these 'Pag wheels (see blue 964 below) which are supplied by Group4 Wheels in the UK ? I've spoken to Jonathan Sage who runs the company: lovely chap but his 'factory' who's tooled up for these in N.Italy won't reveal the colour.....even to him. I guess it's all down to protecting your IP these days. I 'm looking for a 'gold' colour from the '60s which appeared on Campagnolo and Cromodora wheels from that era. Pretty much all of the named golds (eg. BBS GK 1) tend towards a brighter, spangly gold..... whereas I'm looking for a gold which has a lot more 'brown/red'. I've heard that Campagnolo had their wheels protected by Dow #3 protective coating in the '60s which just happened to give them a browny-bronze hue. You can see from the Alfa 33 below how that gold takes on a more 'antique' colour, exaggerated even further by the 330 P3/4 wheel which must have been refurbished well after the original colour was applied, so the paint colour must be around somewhere.... Of course, lighting conditions and other factors play a big part on how colours are perceived. I include the Rotiform on the Rauh-Welt green (964 ?) as well... which is a much more a 'standard' gold....(matte I understand...). So, if you guys know anything or anyone that can point me in the right direction for colour names/codes for any of the golds below.....then I'd be very grateful.
Moving this to the 964 forum where it might gain more traction. Let me know if you want it moved somewhere else by sending me a PM.
Many thanks, Mark. Let it be said that as soon as you even obliquely mention "Any chance you know the paint code" it seems to be akin to asking "May I have your PIN and master key to your Geneva safe deposit box.....". Let's hope someone out there can provide a steer on this.
hello bertonebertoni
the real 40802 campys where rough surface sand casted mg like the image of the 33 stradale. they will look darker and more saturated than the repo's group 4 if you paint them the same color.
this may help you... https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/th...wheels.468298/ later campy's used a different process so are smoother when tecnomagesio acquired them campganolo. at one time during the 90's tecno would custom cast older campy wheels for you on special order with the newer process. these wheels are less saturated gold in color with a pewter tint to them.
hello bertonebertoni
the real 40802 campys where rough surface sand casted mg like the image of the 33 stradale. they will look darker and more saturated than the repo's group 4 if you paint them the same color.
this may help you... https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/th...wheels.468298/ later campy's used a different process so are smoother when tecnomagesio acquired them campganolo. at one time during the 90's tecno would custom cast older campy wheels for you on special order with the newer process. these wheels are less saturated gold in color with a pewter tint to them.
warm regards pf
Thank you PanzerFaust......Both reading your helpful reply and further digging into the subject....I suspect the best way forward is to choose a gold which 'works at the time, on the wheel in hand'. Otherwise, the number of variables and permutations become mind-boggling. As you imply, even extracting a paint code from a wheel supplier is likely to be useless, since paints have been re-formulated to 'save the planet', wheel casting & finishing techniques have improved dramatically over the years and patinas (of existing wheels) are nigh on impossible to replicate. If you're blessed by ownership of a P 330 or 512 S I shudder to think how you approach 'touching-up' a wheel without provoking the wrath of the Monterey Concours Police.... I'm currently working on re-finishing a Fondmetal wheel for my 991.2 in a 'proper' gold and will post the (hopefully successful) results when complete. Deep breath....
Does anyone know the paint code/name for these 'Pag wheels (see blue 964 below) which are supplied by Group4 Wheels in the UK ? I've spoken to Jonathan Sage who runs the company: lovely chap but his 'factory' who's tooled up for these in N.Italy won't reveal the colour.....even to him. I guess it's all down to protecting your IP these days. I 'm looking for a 'gold' colour from the '60s which appeared on Campagnolo and Cromodora wheels from that era. Pretty much all of the named golds (eg. BBS GK 1) tend towards a brighter, spangly gold..... whereas I'm looking for a gold which has a lot more 'brown/red'. I've heard that Campagnolo had their wheels protected by Dow #3 protective coating in the '60s which just happened to give them a browny-bronze hue. You can see from the Alfa 33 below how that gold takes on a more 'antique' colour, exaggerated even further by the 330 P3/4 wheel which must have been refurbished well after the original colour was applied, so the paint colour must be around somewhere.... Of course, lighting conditions and other factors play a big part on how colours are perceived. I include the Rotiform on the Rauh-Welt green (964 ?) as well... which is a much more a 'standard' gold....(matte I understand...). So, if you guys know anything or anyone that can point me in the right direction for colour names/codes for any of the golds below.....then I'd be very grateful.
I cast a lot of Magnesium parts for him for his Winning Alfa typo 33's and many other restorations. You can see many of my castings in these photos. Usually from original parts without tooling. So a lot of work to make right considering shrinkage factors. He was always after me to cast him wheels which I did not want to get involved with for liability issues. He used to joke that there were only two good mag foundries in the world that made quality mag castings. Although mine were pricier I made them in much less time and my surface finish was superior. Most of my sand castings looked like die or investment casting surface finish. I am since retired and I haven't talked to Joe in a number of years but he was usually helpful and know as much as anyone about this stuff.
It is important for proper paint adhesion to protect and convert the surface. Usually a dow process per Mil-M-3171 or ASM-M-3171 typically type I or type III is applied and leaves a variety of colors based on a multitude of factors. Alloy, hardness, and process used will change color considerably. A wheel like this would most likely be made of a rare earths alloy like EZ33AT5 or ZE41AT5. I cast both plus AZ91 and AZ92 (known as DOW metal) The RE alloys will usually turn bright goldish in color but need to be painted as this will not protect the magnesium from the elements. The Aluminum based alloys usually turn gray or brownish.
BTW the finish in these pictures is a paint and not a result of Dow treatment.
I cast a lot of Magnesium parts for him for his Winning Alfa typo 33's and many other restorations. You can see many of my castings in these photos. Usually from original parts without tooling. So a lot of work to make right considering shrinkage factors. He was always after me to cast him wheels which I did not want to get involved with for liability issues. He used to joke that there were only two good mag foundries in the world that made quality mag castings. Although mine were pricier I made them in much less time and my surface finish was superior. Most of my sand castings looked like die or investment casting surface finish. I am since retired and I haven't talked to Joe in a number of years but he was usually helpful and know as much as anyone about this stuff.
It is important for proper paint adhesion to protect and convert the surface. Usually a dow process per Mil-M-3171 or ASM-M-3171 typically type I or type III is applied and leaves a variety of colors based on a multitude of factors. Alloy, hardness, and process used will change color considerably. A wheel like this would most likely be made of a rare earths alloy like EZ33AT5 or ZE41AT5. I cast both plus AZ91 and AZ92 (known as DOW metal) The RE alloys will usually turn bright goldish in color but need to be painted as this will not protect the magnesium from the elements. The Aluminum based alloys usually turn gray or brownish.
BTW the finish in these pictures is a paint and not a result of Dow treatment.
PS the blue car is a 930
Hi Anthony,
Thank you for your detailed response. My previous reply to PanzerFaust had anticipated the complexity of the job in hand. Firstly, yes: correct....I mixed a 930 with a 964: not to be repeated, I assure you. All your points are well taken and clearly based on years of experience. I'm beginning to realise that once you enter into the world of metallurgy and alloy coatings you can travel deeply into territory way beyond the scope of my days of schoolboy chemistry ! Just these few steps of discovery have given me an insight into the complexities of getting a wheel to market.... and as for finding replacements for vehicles which fall into the 'Villa d'Este' category, I can only wonder at the cost and issues involved. I thank you again.....and am rather jealous of your Amazon Green 928
Thank you for your detailed response. My previous reply to PanzerFaust had anticipated the complexity of the job in hand. Firstly, yes: correct....I mixed a 930 with a 964: not to be repeated, I assure you. All your points are well taken and clearly based on years of experience. I'm beginning to realise that once you enter into the world of metallurgy and alloy coatings you can travel deeply into territory way beyond the scope of my days of schoolboy chemistry ! Just these few steps of discovery have given me an insight into the complexities of getting a wheel to market.... and as for finding replacements for vehicles which fall into the 'Villa d'Este' category, I can only wonder at the cost and issues involved. I thank you again.....and am rather jealous of your Amazon Green 928
I wish you luck.
If I can be of any help let me know. As far as the 930 Mark missed it as well and moved the thread here. so you're off the hook. LOL
We were approached by MB and a few others years ago to make alloy wheels when steel wheels were commonly used and honestly the liability was too high and I spent most of my time making parts for the DoD, aerospace and commercial plane market. My specialty was small quantity (1-1000) and ramping up to do wheels was not the direction we wanted to go.
For finish this is a scrap casting I made for the E2C Hawkeye. One of the foot pedals made from some very old hand carved tooling needing attention so not one of my better parts.. A finished casting is only as good as the tooling . This is AZ91ET6 and was treated with a Dow III per a Specific Grumman spec. A bit darker than usual but As you see the color isn't what you want and although the RE alloys were goldish in color they were never that gorgeous deep gold brown you show. I would suspect that the 33 wheels were completely machined. Joe brought me some of the tooling for a similar wheel once and it seemed to be oversized on every dimension. This was an approach that Curtiss Wright used to take for mag castings since they can suffer from issues like reacted sand and other mag specific defects that only show up in radiographic or fluorescent dye penetrant inspection.
I can only Imagine how hard it must be to source parts like these old mag wheels. I have a rare set of Speedline RSR wheels that are impossible to find and prices today are outrageous.
I am helping a friend with a 962 project and locating the mag castings is next to impossible. Many are being remade in aluminum which makes sense if you're not racing. Also mag and aluminum have the same shrinkage factor so the tooling can be used for either.
Sourcing parts like this one can get quite pricey and prices could run between $15k and $45k just for a used part. Unfortunately I retired too early and would love to make parts like this today. A few years back nobody had interest in them today they are gold.
If I can be of any help let me know. As far as the 930 Mark missed it as well and moved the thread here. so you're off the hook. LOL
We were approached by MB and a few others years ago to make alloy wheels when steel wheels were commonly used and honestly the liability was too high and I spent most of my time making parts for the DoD, aerospace and commercial plane market. My specialty was small quantity (1-1000) and ramping up to do wheels was not the direction we wanted to go.
For finish this is a scrap casting I made for the E2C Hawkeye. One of the foot pedals made from some very old hand carved tooling needing attention so not one of my better parts.. A finished casting is only as good as the tooling . This is AZ91ET6 and was treated with a Dow III per a Specific Grumman spec. A bit darker than usual but As you see the color isn't what you want and although the RE alloys were goldish in color they were never that gorgeous deep gold brown you show. I would suspect that the 33 wheels were completely machined. Joe brought me some of the tooling for a similar wheel once and it seemed to be oversized on every dimension. This was an approach that Curtiss Wright used to take for mag castings since they can suffer from issues like reacted sand and other mag specific defects that only show up in radiographic or fluorescent dye penetrant inspection.
I can only Imagine how hard it must be to source parts like these old mag wheels. I have a rare set of Speedline RSR wheels that are impossible to find and prices today are outrageous.
I am helping a friend with a 962 project and locating the mag castings is next to impossible. Many are being remade in aluminum which makes sense if you're not racing. Also mag and aluminum have the same shrinkage factor so the tooling can be used for either.
Sourcing parts like this one can get quite pricey and prices could run between $15k and $45k just for a used part. Unfortunately I retired too early and would love to make parts like this today. A few years back nobody had interest in them today they are gold.
Seems like you had a fascinating career, Anthony....and as you say, being in the business nowadays would be fun.... as well as pretty profitable...:-) Many thanks for all your comments and 'leaving the door open' for any future help. It always fascinates me that an apparently simple question about a paint code can flush out people with vast knowledge and experience in some of the more esoteric (though still very valid, I hasten to add !!) areas of the automotive industry. I will post the wheels when they are done. It's a bit of a stab in the dark because I specced my 991.2 in irish green before Dr Wolfgang obligingly copied ( the paint for his one millionth version 6 months later.... We'd picked out the decklid script in 'gold' ( as per the '60s F-series) and are now attempting a slightly oblique reference to the period with a set of wheels in the same kinda hue. But carving a tasteful line between the ostentatious and the 'reverential' is not easy. I've sourced the wheels (standard cast-flow affairs.....so not costly) from Italy and have been somewhat becalmed amongst a sargasso-like sea of paint and supplier permutations. Still, I guess we wouldn't want it any other way, would we ? Having something 'stock' would be too boring, I keep telling myself
Where you able to finish your wheels in Gold and if so what color code did you come up with? Also how about a picture of them? I’ve got a set of reproduction wheels from Group4 that are going on my 1974 G Body that are gold, however I’m going to paint them as they are too bright and looking for something similar as you mentioned in this post originally.
Was curious of this as well. Have some wheels needing refinishing but original color looks a lot lighter. The barrel outside is original finish and more of a light gold color.
02-10-2018, 10:49 AM
Campagnolo 'tribute' wheel: paint code ?
I'm currently working on re-finishing a Fondmetal wheel for my 991.2 in a 'proper' gold and will post the (hopefully successful) results when complete. Deep breath....
so you're off the hook. LOL
