springer3

John Speake in Cambridge UK is developing a code reader for the 928, and plans to offer a 964 version soon. Price is not set, but he is talking about much less than $US 1000. He is talking about a PC-linked and a stand alone.

Bill Baum of Baum Tools is already selling a code reader that includes the 964 (round 19-pin plug). Its cost is over $3K, and therefore for professionals and seriously demented DIYs only.

This is an active thread on the 928 board. Drop in and give John some encouragement for the 964 version. I already told him I was in at anything less than $1300 - the last eBay price for a nice Hammer.

Regards

Wachuko

It would be great to see something that could be installed on a PC/Notebook instead of a dedicated unit... it would make it hardware independent...and with the ability to transfer the software to another unit if the main one failed...

Thank you for the heads up!

Here is that link from the 928 forum

Diagnostic Tester

Phil Raby

Sounds very useful. Have to be Mac compatible, of course

Seriously, I'm sure there'd be a market for this. I'd love to run a feature in 911&PW to help promote it.

Cheers

garrett376

Yes Phil!!! It must work for a Mac!! If it doesn't it's worthless!!! (to me at least!)

Why is it I have a code reader for my Ford/Mazda truck and it cost me $35 US??!!! And it even came with a manual that was very clear! I bet the technology is pretty similar!

Adrian

It depends upon what system you are talking about. OBDII is quite simple but OBDI is much more complicated because Bosch and Porsche did not release the address codes. For this system there was no legal requirement to do so.
A lot depends upon the manufacturer as well.
Whilst I wish these people all the luck in the world with this project, I have heard this for over 10 years now and nobody has ever come up with anything that really works. Many have tried and have got to a certain point but then find they need something Bosch will not give them.
I can also tell you that there are quite some differences between 928 and 964 control units and many of the early 964 (ex 928) control units did not have microprocessors anyway. Whoever tries this will discover all these things for themselves.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

springer3

Adrian:

Thank you for the feedback. I agree it is a daunting challenge to build a computer interface when the original design specifications are secret. I am not sure I agree that OBD II is more simple than OBD I. On the user interface that is true, but on function, the OBD II is much more capable.

US law has required for some time that all cars sold in the US must meet the OBD II connector and communications specification. To defeat the law, some manufacturers tried to make the codes secret. Just last November, all car manufacturers selling in the US signed a consent agreement that they would make all emissions-related codes public. The result is that you can read and reset codes on new cars using a code reader that costs around $100. It still costs about $1200 to get testing functions, but it is a huge help just to get the codes.

The US Government became involved in this issue preceisly because Bosch and others were others tried to keep information secret and charge high prices. Even 10 years after the system became obsolete, we have to deal with high cost and limited service options for the 964 engine controls.

Relief may be in sight. Here is a quote from Bill Baum at Baum Tools:

"We have just released, last week, our iSCAN Porsche software module. This is working on 1989 to 2003 Porsche and to date no complaints! We received 50 modules last Tuesday and were sold out by Thursday morning. 200 more on order but we are already backordered 52 modules so 148 left!"

We can only hope that the new equipment will shake loose some Hammers at reasonable prices, or hope that John Speake can deliver on his project. I love everything about the 964, but I am unhappy about the situation with the diagnostic codes.

I did try the "blinking engine light" trick on my 92 C2, but it did not respond. I will investigate further (the troubleshooting instructions say to chect the WOT switch).

Regards

Phil Raby

So does the Baum device do what John's planning?

Cheers

Adrian

The major issue I have with all of this is that a lot of these tools whilst on the surface seeming to be great time savers are actually not. Good old troubleshooting is often the only way. I have 30 years experience in aviation and on board diagnostic systems. I can tell you because I did the figures. Over a ten year period 50% of components replaced using diagnostic tools were "no fault founds". That is a huge amount of wasted money for the operator. However at least we had customers to get the money back. A car owner does not have an income just money going out the door.
Whilst I can sit here and list all the issues off I will not. I will just say that I do not believe there is any substitute for good old knowledge, getting the hands dirty and finding the fault yourself when it comes to the 964. Later models may be more reliable in this area. I will throw out a word which Porsche and Bosch programmed into the software. PLAUSIBILTY. This means the fault codes reflect what might be failed rather than hard failures. The software cannot determine multiple faults. It is basically dumb. Apart from Bosch the biggest winner from the Hammer system was the hall sensor manufacturer.
The hammer for me is a last resort tool. The BEST tool was the 9268 flashing tester but that is no longer available.
The system the hammer could most reliably test was the Airbag system. The hammer is also required to bleeding the C4 locks. I have no data on testing the 1991 and up alarm systems.
I honestly do not see current efforts being of much further help except in the most frustrating of cases. One serious failure in the 964 DME software is that it cannot recognise a failure within itself.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

springer3

As always, your knowledge and judgement are good. Code readers are a way that the manufacturers attempted to help mechanics cope as the cars became more complicated.

I am encouraged by the comment that the Hammer is basically a prop, and that basic troubleshooting skills are still needed. The factory manual imply that the Hammer is needed for even basic troubleshooting, and is also needed for some maintenance items.

I look forward to reading you book, which I suspect will not assume a Hammer is available, and therefore will be of more use than the factory manuals.

Regards

alan911sc

It would be nice if someone could come up with some sort of software for PC use for just some basic maintenance items like bleeding the C4 hydraulic system and to reset the air bag idiot light after you had taken the clock out and started the car. Would have to be reasonable in price I might add. I hate to go to the Porsche Stealer for things I would rather do my self.

Lorenfb

The level of info provided by the Hammer pales in comparison to the Porsche
ST2. Very little data and diagnostic info results from the Hammer. The only
real benefit is its ability to reset codes. This is the results from what Bosch
designed to have "outputed" from the DME which limits ANY future tester
when used on the 964.

The OBDII data output is much more robust in that it provides a wealth of data.
The problem now becomes, for most techs and DIYs, how to intepret the data
and use it, as is always the cause. The 964 is VERY simple compared to the 993
and 996 engines and very reliable electronically (the DME). Check out this
website (www.systemsc.com) on the Failures page.

Bottomlines:
1. As Adrian said; It's not a simple task to duplicate the Hammer and the costs
probably don't justify the returns (market size)
2. The 964 and 928 are TOTALLY different requiring two different efforts. Only
the late 928 has the internal diagnostics which further reduces the market.
3. Good basic troubleshooting techniques and a good manual is ALWAYS
better than a misleading diagnostic tool.

A good case in point:

Last week a customer of mine had a 964 which would start and die. He asked
that I bring my Hammer to test for the problem (Everyone now thinks that
these tools "fix" cars). I wasn't able to make the visit. So he called another
shop with the Hammer. The Hammer indicated that the fault was a bad DME
and/or a bad distributor sensor.

I indicated to him that the 964 DME rarely fails. I told him that the ignition
wires or something related to the ignition system was bad; e.g. oil on the
ignition wires or bad plugs. We found that the 964 upper plugs would
run fine but the lower caused the engine to die. The problem was all
bad plugs on the lower side of the engine and NOT the DME nor the
sensor.

Diagnostic tools are not the "end all". Most techs get mislead by them or
waste money using them. How would you feel if your tech had replaced
your 964 DME at over $1000 and then founded bad plugs. Those purchased
DMEs DON'T come back out once installed?

Have Fun
Loren
'88 3.2

Lorenfb

Sorry for the typos. Too rushed today.

Loren

Adrian

Diagnostic tools have been used to replace knowledge and training. It is believed that if you train a mechanic or technician how to use the diagnostic tools they (the diagnostic tools) will fix the cars and the repair facilities save money on long courses and on the job training for the mechanic to actually learn the car. They turn a mechanics into a tool operators rather than a professional. This is happening in aviation more and more.
In the end this leads to nobody knowing how anything works and huge amounts of money (your money) wasted on replacing parts that are perfectly serviceable.
To give you some idea how things have changed. I was an apprentice. Took us four years to graduate and we were not let loose on anything without supervision until we had graduated. 42 written exams and I lost count of the practical exams later we started at the bottom of the ladder.
The company I have just parted company with provide 5 weeks basic training before they are sent on an aircraft type course. 2 exams and three years later they are at the top of the aircraft systems and maintenance inspection ladder. If you go to a special school near Vienna this is reduced to 2 years.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

PS: The only advantage of this situation is that I get to write books about Porsches that are more than just an overview.

John Speake

Adrian,
Your comments about using a diagnostic tool are correct. It is only one of the tools that the vehicle repairer can use. The best one is his own brain.

Maybe it would be better just to call the diagnostic tool a "fault code indicator". However I do think you are being unduly pessimistic. If a fault code reader tells you which wheel a faulty ABS sensor (or by implication its connections) is at - how much time is that going to save you when trying to find out why the ABS light has come on ? Quite a bit of time I think.

After your book publishing feedback I would have thought you might have been a bit more encouraging for my project :-)

Adrian

Dear John,
Your project and my opinion on the dependence upon diagnostic tools are two different things.
I sincerely hope that you make it over the hurdles. Rest assured if there was a fault reader available at a reasonable price I would naturally purchase it because there are times I could have used one. My point is simply that diagnostic tools for the 964 are expensive for what they are and what they do.
There have been a long line of persons attempt this project. I have helped a couple in the early days. I remember one person fried a PDAS/ABS control unit in the very early prototype phase. One guy got really stuck into it and hit the Porsche/Bosch wall. He sold his Porsches andmoved to Ferrari in disgust.
We are also talking 964s. Your project is for the 928 which is similar but very different in many areas.
I can find a bad ABS sensor with a multimeter. I can detect a bad ABS sensor by the presentation of the fault as it occurs.
Personally and this is just my personal opinion, knowing how difficult this project is I would have kept it to myself and sought private help. I often felt I mentioned my book far far too early in the piece.
However I do wish you luck and if there is anything I can help you with please feel free to ask. If I have it, it is yours.
One key point and I am not sure how the 928 works but on the 964 one has to go through the DME first to access other system fault codes. The DME has to be reset to NO Fault to access other control units fault codes hooked to the 19 pin diagnostic port. A common operator error as well.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4