Cupcar

Thanks Adrian-

You can see the nature of the problem here in the USA from the comment by forklifts driving instructor about the seam welding.

Even though the RSA was built around the time immediately after American Cup production and at the end of Euro RS production, none of these chassis could have been used because:

Porsche could not have used Euro RS N/GT bodies that were "lying around" because they do not have the required airbag dashboard.

Porsche could not have used Euro RS "Touring" bodies that were "lying around", even if one happened to have an airbag dash because these cars had the side upholstery in the rear and therefore did not have the required brackets removed to install the carpeting in an RSA.

Porsche could not have used American Cup bodies that were "lying around" or we would see all the other modifications such as the kill switch mount, tow hook support, seat belt mounts, fire extinguisher mount, ABS alternate mount etc that these cars have.

For me the case is closed, there were no seam welded RSA cars.

Adrian

Dear Cupcar,
I agree. Are you going to write an article like you have in the past and present your findings. You know for sure that if something is not put out there the debate will start again.
At least this time I did not get into trouble like last time.
When will the "RSA fitted with a disguised RS M64/03 engine" start up again?
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

B.Kish

Bob,

I love the post, as we discussed personally.

The only other caveat I might add is that many RSA's came with a sunroof. Would this effect which cars were built on the Euro RS chassis as these were likely all hardtops? Just a thought.

For the post.

Chassis 9133

Build date 9/92

No sunroof

Rolled fenders

And part of the focus of the "witch hunt"

Jim Michaels

I just got to this thread after a few days away. I read the whole thing, and the one thing that I can't get out of my mind is that, according to Cupcar, Zone 8 recently moved the RSA up a class (for autox?) because they thought they had seam welds and were "specially race prepared." I wonder what evidence they had to support that decision. Did they bother to actually look at any RSAs? RSAs were placed in D for PCA club racing (while C2s were in F), but RSAs were allowed to get down to Carrera Cup weight (2780?), whereas the C2 had to stay at 3000+#.

B.Kish

Jim,

To digress from the topic a bit, we're not sure why they (Zone 8) moved the RSA's for all Zone driving events. No one will give a credible answer. Here are some reasons explained to me other than the ones Cupcar has given:

"...it has LOTS of track-based improvements"

"...harder suspension bushings, tire upgrades"

"...perceived advantage"

For the record though, it is my understanding that RSA's with sunroof and AC (as most came equipped) can now run in PCA Class D with the C2's due to a recent rule change. This makes sense because as equipped this way you lose much of the weight advantage and basically only gain the tail, door panels and manual steering.

Then there is the matter of the 64/03 engines we supposedly all have that Adrian was referring to....

Adrian

Dear Brent,
You should try and get a list of the track improvements. I am assuming they are saying it came from the factory with these improvements.

I have a full set of RSA suspension parts in my basement (don't ask). I can guarantee that the only difference in the suspension department which might provide a slight advantage is that the rear springs are 40% stiffer and progressive.
I do not know where the harder bushings stuff came from. That was fitted to the RS not the RSA.
I have actually be up close and personal to a RSA. A Rennlisters RSA who gave it to me and Bentley publishers for a day to play with. This was last October. We spent a lot of time underneath that car photographing things, recording things and generally having fun. You can actually see some of this on my web site under "visit to Bentley".
Where is this headed, take a look and you will see that most of the parts of the suspension are C4/C2.
With all the options and it is my understanding that ALL RSAs were delivered with sunroofs and aircon. 6 options in all I believe the perceived weight advantage is cancelled by driver weight.

Somewhere along the line the myths and legends over the RSA have ended up affecting current owners. That is something maybe current owners need to put straight.

I wonder if in the past, privately "race or track" prepared RSAs have been
passed off "as factory" supplied.

Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

B.Kish

Adrian,

Good points all that you have brought up. The myth vs. legend thing is somewhat fun. The value of my RSA goes up as the legends grow and down as they are disproved (as they inevitably are)

Regarding the options for an RSA I believe there were five basic options.

Sunroof
AC ($2805 per my invoice)
Stereo
LSD ($913 per my invoice)
Metallic Paint (Polar Silver metallic and Mignight Blue Metallic)

Other custom paint colors I've seen were available like Fly Yellow, Turqoise, Maritime Blue at even more additional cost than the Silver/Blue metallics normally offered.

Keith Veraque of RSAmerica.net has info on ~240 RSA's and their options. Of the 240 cars he knows of only 4 (~1.4%) were total option delete cars.

I'm not sure numbers with various option combos. Mine, for instance, is a non-sunroof car without radio BUT with AC and LSD.

Oh yeah, and the 64/03 motor.

Adrian

Dear Brent,
The problem of the myths and legends is that people seriously believe them and come after people like me when they are told, well hey I do not think that is right.
The RSA value will always be higher even though it was actually cheaper at purchase, simply because of its rarity and they are generally kept in pretty good nick.
Again boy did I get ripped into when I suggested what you have in your posts. However in the end the truth does prevail. Mind you I am sure there are people out there still unconvinced.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

marc 1xx1

Just to clarify a few recent statements that are not 100% correct as I understand.....

All RSA were NOT produced with AC and Sunroof as noted above. However, it seems that most were produced/ordered in that configuration.

The limited options on the car were:
Sunroof
AC
Limited Slip
CR-1 Radio

Standard Paint: White, Black, Red
Optional Paint: Polar Silver and Midnight Blue as well as paint to spec (their is one Turquoise Metalic car as well as several Ferrari Fly Yellow cars)

I am very fortunate to own a delete car (as my RSA owners refer to them). My car (# 20) is confugured ONLY with Limited Slip and CR-1 Radio...it also has the optional Polar Silver Metalic Paint.

The car has:
NO SUNROOF and
NO AC

I hope this clarifies and does not confuse.

marc

Adrian

Dear Marc,
One has to be technically accurate because otherwise things do get confused. Your colleagues are correct yours is a delete version. It was to be produced (I should have said this in my first post) or planned as a "standard RSA" with all the options (you missed the special covering for the seats which was RSA only). The original customer of your RSA then asked for the delete options to be incoporated.
On paper your RSA started life the same as the others however it left the line in a different or delete configuration.
The RSA was one of the only if not the only 964 which was produced hard and fast with one set of options only and the only other option was to delete them. I often call the RSA the only standard 964.
Yours was dealt with before the roof was installed of course.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

JC in NY

So technically Marc's RSA does have Sunroof and A/C but they are "deleted". That is different than a car that really does not have it in the first place. I see!

(tongue in cheek)

RSAErick

You think that's weird.... MY car started life at a 928GTS. But they deleted 2 cylinders; the front engine; water-cooling; the pop-up headlights; power steering; leather; etc. etc. and VOILA!!! Out popped an RSA.

9caregiver

Greetings,

Just to keep this acurate. The RSA came without any of the five options talked about. There were actually SIX options (listed on the order sheet at the dealers) if you count optional paint or option 451 Reduced Radio Preperation which is the only option that came in ALL of the cars that was listed on the option list. When one ordered their RSA you would ADD the options like any other Porsche. I have an original order guide from my first RSA that actually has the first buyer's check marks next to his chosen options. You also had to specify what color seatbelt you wanted, Black, Red or Blue.

Also, Most RSAs did not come with ALL options. Most will have A/C alot will have the sunroof and many LSD but usually in a combo of two of the big three options. I have looked at alot of these cars and have observed this first hand. Many of the delete cars were ordered by enthusiasts who immediately made preperations for Club racing. Most of the really progressed RSA race cars today were delete cars. the two that ran at Daytona, delete cars. These were always ideal Club cars, And for some strange reason just a bit faster than the C-2. I agree there is nothing fancy with the suspension but a suspension change and these become very capable track cars.

As far as rolled fenders and RS markings, They are on the cars. Take them for what they are worth. (I still feel they could have been RS Touring bodies, the only difference the RSA had the metal clips in the rear interior removed, not impossible.) While there has been no documentation for them, No one has been able to explain them away beyond a doubt either. Adrian, You do tend to minimalise the RSA. I am not sure why. They have a big following here in the States and are really great cars. Just ask someone who owns one!

I think it is funny each time an RSA thread starts the naysayers jump right in. It does not give the thread a chance. 9133 is the latest car I have heard of with rolled fenders. Does anyone have a later one?

Best Always,

Don

sboggs2

I have #9157. It has rolled fenders and is not seam welded.

Cupcar

I think what Adrian was trying to say was that to Porsche the real customer is the IMPORTER for the country where the car is purchased by the end user who is in turn a customer of the importer.

The Importer, Porsche Cars North America in the case of the USA, specifies how the cars are to be equipped for sale to end users in the USA. Sales strategies and laws etc. determine how the cars are ordered from Porsche by the importer.

The options available to the importer are not always made available to the end user customer. For example, M657 is the order code for power steering. All non-RSA C2/4 cars imported to the USA were technically equipped with this importer's "option" that is not an end user option in the USA. This importer option was deleted along with other USA importer options such as: M573 Air conditioning, M650 Suntop, and M654 Cruise control which were normally standard in the USA because PCNA choose to order all their cars this way. Many of these were standard options available to the end user in other countries.

So, to create the RSA Porsche deleted the M657,M573,M650,M654 options along with some others for the heated mirrors etc and added a few such as M419 for the parcel tray in the back and M451 reduced radio prep and they then had an RSA.

The Suntop, Radio, Air conditioning, etc. then became regular end user options for the RSA only, but they were technically deleted from the normal importer options.

Make any sense??