JC in NY

Visok is probably German for Weissach, the Porsche racing division.

Cupcar

Hi Adrian-

Yes it is true, anyone can add the European RS seam welding and other modifications to their 964 chassis and who is to know the difference? I'm hoping at least nobody is interested fraudulently representing their car, I'm a dreamer I guess.

To do the special N/GT chassis preparation the special parts are available and in fact Porsche provides the recipe to do this in the in a three fold-out page set of instructions called: "Scope of conversion 911 Carrera RS-Body-in-white" in Body Volume 5 of the Carrera 2/4 Workshop Manual, beginning on pages 50-101 of the Carrera 2 section . I put that in bold because nobody seems to look it up, it makes an interesting read.

Certainly I did not mean to imply that the putty shown in the picture is the key to *knowing* but only to show where the welds were done at the factory in my car (note in the picture that my car has no PVC undercoating except where applied over the welds). BTW, when I took delivery of my American Cup car I had to sign a waiver from Porsche accepting that my car had a 3 year limited rust warrantee due to the lack of undercoat. So, if an RSA were seam welded I believe it would have a full PVC under coat applied over the welds or the new owner would have been asked to sign a waiver.

IMHO, it would be *very* difficult to eliminate the undercoating after the car was built and do all the workshop manual operations to create an N/GT chassis and have it look "factory". It's "Doable", but a *lot* of work.

I am not out to prove anything other than to document what the RS America cars did or did not have coming from Porsche. There is so much misunderstanding about the cars here in Zone 8 of the Porsche Club of America, the RS America was just moved up a racing class just because it was believed the cars were seam welded and "specially race prepared". I felt the RS Americas were being well driven in their Carrera 2 class and were being singled out due to a "witch hunt", so wanted to show seam welding was NOT standard and IF ANYTHING limited to a few cars. Besides, I'm just curious and like to know the facts. Certainly no RS America I have examined has shown evidence of special preparation for racing by the factory and I have not seen one I could say for sure had factory rolled fender lips.

The American Cup cars are VIN numbered as a normal USA, AIRBAG equipped Carrera 2 with a "2" and not a "9" as the European RS does for the 13th digit, so they are technically NOT a Carrera RS. The RS America as you know has a "1" as the 13th digit. I don't think any European RS cars were made equipped with air bags unless it was a very special order situation.

What number do you want me to give you, I'm not sure where to look under the dash board?

9caregiver

Greetings Adrian,

Are you talking about the production numbers that are stamped into the tub? It was my undestanding that those are not unique numbers to a series. Even my 73 RS has a production number mixed with other 911s built in 73. Another point that the numbers may not be special is the Cup USA had ordinary Vin numers that were not in sequence. It also was not a ZZZ number. My two Carrera Cup USA cars also had a number stamped on the rear dash, pass side. They were two unrelated numbers to each other. Again my observations.

Bob, Your explanations on the RS markings make perfect sense, the only thing is only the early RSA had them not the later versions without the rolled fenders. I think the engine stamping was done after the assembly markings were made otherwise why would they be needed if marked M64/03?

I am not sure there are any seam welded tubs in any amount of RSAs built. It would be easy to see the other modifications. The kill switch mount for one would jump out.

There is still the unexplained, The rolled lips mainly, Why on just the early cars? Why the same as the RS Touring spec which also had rolled lips only? And Why did they start producing 1993 cars in January of 1992 as the ROW RS production was ending? And lastly the RS markings only seen on the early cars.

Best,

Don

Adrian

Dear Cupcar,
To me it would be better off trying to prove none of them were seam welded. This would support your case to have the RSA put back where it belongs. It is not a race car never was.
Under the dash left hand side is a stamped number this is the body number.
The seam welding data on the conversion is all in my book. Funnily enought if you had waited people could have used this because I have titled the section on how to inspect your car to see if it is seam welded.
Dear Don,
You may well find that the Carrera Cups were converted C2s. That is the risk you take.
My point always has been to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
The reason why the RSA was started was not unusual at all. The 89C4 started in Jan 89. The 993 started in Jan 94 on the line. Body asembly started for all in Oct 88, 91 and 93 respectively. This was a marketing decision not based on anything else. When the RSA bodies were being created RS body production was long over.
You can ask why forever if you are going to prove it you have to be able to match genuine identification features of the RSA with the RS with body part stamps and numbers. If these early RSAs are as you say then they are built from bodies which are production line ready.
My best guess is and this is my answer to Forklift. You mean Weissach. This is the home of Porsche motorsports. Any spare Carrera RS bodies over and above what they already had would have been sent to Weissach as attrition replacements for the NGTs as well as for conversion to RSRs for LeMans and other series.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

9caregiver

Adrian,

I understand your points. I do not think it is as easy as part numbers so we may never know about why the rolled fenders ect.

An interesting aside, To say the RSA never was intended to be a racecar....Porsche NA specifically marketed the RSA as a Club car. In the early 1990's when Porsche Club of America Club Racing started the RSA WAS the car to race (Today it is the GT-3 Cup, how times and Club racing have changed!) They were always seen as faster than the contemporary C-2. I also know of at least two RSAs that were run in the Daytona 24 hour. So while they are not a Carrera RS or Cup Car they are still not a standard C-2 either.

Best,

Don

kennyjr748

1993 RSA #8164
Rolled fenders, no seam welds, daily driver...

Kenny Tse
SF, CA

forklift

Cupcar,

You may want to check out http://www.rsamerica.net/market/vehicles/index.htm

There are about 15 RSAs for sale there including 014 (which is a track car so he should know) and 002. They are looking for buyers, but have thier emails listed. Otherwise I will see what I have tomorrow.

Cupcar

Hi Again Adrian-

Yes, I'm waiting for your book it will be nice to have.

I can't find the number you describe under my dash, could it be hidden by my airbag dash padding?

Because of the lore regarding the RSA here in USA, I felt it easier to ask for proof of seam welds.

FYI, I find of the 26 operations to convert a body-in-white to RS specifications the American Cup has all of them EXCEPT:

Number 5 and 6 page 50-103 water bottle bracket changes
Number 1 page 51-103 coat hook removal
Number 2 and 4 page 53-103 rear seat bracket removal (even though no rear seats were delivered).

These were performed on a 964.500.900.00 airbag dash body.

I find the RSA has the following performed:

Number 6 on page 51-103 removal of trim retainer
Number 1,2,3,5 and 6 on page 53-103 removal of rear seat brackets, sidewall trim brackets and seat belt mountings.

Body in white number 964.500.900.02 was specified for an RSA, but to get a European RS one was asked to buy a non-airbag dash body, part number 964.500.900.01, and follow the instructions in the shop manual to finish it into a Carrera RS. I find that interesting a part number for the RSA but not the Euorpean RS!!!

Adrian

Dear Cupcar,
One can read whatever one wants into any of this. I was not trying to knock your plan down just offering an outside view on maybe how you could actually prove all of this one way or other.
It is claimed that the first 25 were seam welded. If you got access to these 25 and showed they were all identically seam welded then that would be a strong point in the "lore" favour. However I believe that at least one in this series has been checked and it is not seam welded.
I have to be honest and say none of the marketing stuff I have in my home about the RSA specifically states marketing as a race car for the RSA.
I do not doubt something was done and maybe just maybe Andial and Porsche Motorsports USA got hold of a couple of RSAs and played with them.
I have no idea why the fenders were peened/rolled. Again this might have been a request from the USA for some reason.
All ifs, buts and maybes but no conclusive proof. When you think about it, you can trace the history of your Cupcars. You would think that these first 25 RSAs would provide the same sort of history unless the history was being rewritten. There are normally no big secrets like this.
Anyway back to the quest. Somewhere in your 964s there are ident numbers for the body. This might be a path worth pursuing.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

PS: I do not find the part number issue interesting at all. I will tell you why. The factory manual in English is for America. You are not allowed to have non airbag equipped 964s since 1990. The German version of the manual is a little different because airbags were not required until 1993. The Carrera RS 3.8 had an airbag for the drivers side but used a non airbag dash assembly.

forklift

My car is back, but I can't see much without a lift.

Here is what I have: On the rear shock tower, no welding as shown in your picture, if I lift up that wire there, there is some under that.

Under my dash there is a small silver box that reads:

964.641.330.00
VDO
410.209./013/001

V 4.7.6 2.92 (that is stamped in)

Hope that helps.

Cupcar

Adrian-

That is my point actually, the car was never sold to be a racing car. The perception of some here in the USA believe it was built for racing to the extent that the car is being classified differently for racing, something that is to its disadvantage.

I think enough people have responded, including some owners of the first 25 cars, to show that the RSA does not have any seam welding, and has no more in common with the European RS N/GT chassis than what was required to remove the rear upholstery and seats.

Perhaps along the way some of the cars were modified by race teams to have some N/GT things added like the seam welds, battery cut off, tow brace etc and this was observed by some and taken to mean all RSA cars have the modifications. Perhaps some were not even really looking at an RSA when they came to their conclusion. Who knows where the legend started?

I don't think this dimininishes the car, but I wanted to set the record straight.

Two questions for you:

1) If I find this body number you are interested in, how would we interpret it? Does it code for operations to be performed on the body production line?

2) Did I understand you correctly that no European RS cars were built after January 1992?

Thanks.

forklift

I am new here, but is it common to put forth effort to help out on questions and then be completely ignored?

Cupcar

Forklift-

I apologize, I didn't mean to ignore you. I thought your question on the VDO box would be taken by Adrian since I have no idea.

I think Adrian is looking for a number that is actually stamped on the chassis sheet metal. The VDO box has something to do with your instruments and was installed after the body shell was constructed. I could not find my number either.

The interesting thing is that you have chassis number 8006 which is the sixth RSA built. I bet if you look at your drivers door jamb you will find a sticker with a bar code on it. This sticker should say in the upper right hand corner : "1/92" indicating the month and year of manufacture, assuming they built at least 6 cars in January 1992.

You have reported that your car does not have the welds around the shock mounts inside the engine compartment. I take this to mean that your car is not seam welded and answers the important question about the first 25 cars being seam welded or not, it looks like they were not.

One thing I would like to say about seam welding. I do not think it adds anything other than durability for racing use when the car is driven on racing tires with very stiff springs. For the intended purpose of the RSA it is worthless. The myth is that the car handles better because it is stiffer but I doubt the stiffness added by the seam welding makes any difference unless you are a *very* sensitive driver. A roll cage adds much more stiffness.

Thanks.

forklift

Cupcar,

That's cool, I think someone pissed in my Cheerio's this morning.

I just bought the car in July (although I saved the original R&T test from '92, so it's a car I've been wanting it for a while), and then drove it from Vegas to Virginia. Hit 160 in TX. That was interesting and probably stupid, but fun. Anyway the previous (dishonest) owner put in a roll bar and 5 point harnesses for DEs. I also use it for DEs. I plan on keeping it forever, even when/if I get the 997 GT3 (if it comes stateside).

One of the insturctors at Summit Point had told me about the seam welding, but I guess we now know that is just folklore.

Thanks.

Adrian, I have your book on order from B&N

Adrian

Dear Forklift,
Sorry but I am a bit of busy person at the moment. The silver box with the number you mention is the central informer. This controls all the warn lights and horn.
The number I was looking for is normally tucked up the back of the dash but on the body. Normally very hard to see. I had an example I was sent but I seem to have lost it.
As far as the damage areas in your RSA and the repairs. Hard to explain without pictures. Those pictures are in my book. I am sure you will be able to at least get an overview of the repair areas.

Dear Cupcar,
I never once attempted to diminish the RSA. A few inappropriate and untrue legends have grwon up around this car. I do not know why maybe as simple as to say "we have something the Europeans have". I do not know. I was offering some ideas to confirm or deny the stories to help your cause.
I believe the RSA remains a valuable limited edition version of the 964 which did not need stories to build it up to be "the American RS" ours is as good as yours thing.
I made a slip up in my dates. The Carrera RSs were built from August 91 to July 92? so would have shared (not the NGTs) with the line with the RSAs for a short time. My mistake. Sorry about that. Jan 93 was in my mind for the RSA which is a year too late.
Mind you that further says that the RSAs did not use up old RS tubs lying around because they were in still production at the same time as the first 25 RSAs were hitting the line.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4