Timing values for Link 2
12-15-2003, 03:52 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
After talking with Link USA, it waould apprear that the static timing on a 944 is about 10 degrees. Link 2 users should be putting this value into the static timing variables to ensure the correct absolute timing is being used by the computer. This explains why NZ got a boat load of knock using my numbers without a 10degree static advance.
The way to check static timing on a Link is to zero out the advance limit function which temporarily clamps the advance to zero, then check the timing with a dia back timing light. The amount of dial back id the static advance. Now put this number into the static advance variable and your good to go......
The way to check static timing on a Link is to zero out the advance limit function which temporarily clamps the advance to zero, then check the timing with a dia back timing light. The amount of dial back id the static advance. Now put this number into the static advance variable and your good to go......
12-16-2003, 05:36 AM
#48
Race Director
I am not sure if I made myself clear here. Can I enter the 10 degrees in the computer, and then enter the values you gave me in the table exactly? Also, what do you have for the ign retard value?
12-16-2003, 07:53 PM
#49
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
NZ
You are right on. If you enter a 10 as the static timing value, just go right ahead and enter the absolute values I gave you and you should be good. If you have a dial back timing light, please check what the static timing is as I don't have one. So far I, Link seem to remember the last 944 they did "was about 10".....
When the car is runnig you can actually increase the static timing value and nothing happens as all the computer does is add whaterver is in the static to the table values. The actual timing does not change. If you put a static timing value of 10 into the map supplied with the Link2, you start to see what that map gives you in absolute values. Its about right on, with upper 30's in the light cruise and 20-21 on boost.
You are right on. If you enter a 10 as the static timing value, just go right ahead and enter the absolute values I gave you and you should be good. If you have a dial back timing light, please check what the static timing is as I don't have one. So far I, Link seem to remember the last 944 they did "was about 10".....
When the car is runnig you can actually increase the static timing value and nothing happens as all the computer does is add whaterver is in the static to the table values. The actual timing does not change. If you put a static timing value of 10 into the map supplied with the Link2, you start to see what that map gives you in absolute values. Its about right on, with upper 30's in the light cruise and 20-21 on boost.
12-23-2003, 04:45 PM
#50
Race Director
So, why have a static value at all if you just enter the timing values you want in the table? I think there is still some confusion about what the timing values are. I talked to some tuners of Link here, and they said the values in the table are on top of the static timing entered. What is the deal anyone?
12-23-2003, 06:01 PM
#51
Three Wheelin'
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Originally posted by NZ951
So, why have a static value at all if you just enter the timing values you want in the table?
So, why have a static value at all if you just enter the timing values you want in the table?
12-24-2003, 03:27 AM
#52
Race Director
Ok, I have sorted my timing issues. So, at what rev range should the timing advance be increased as it reaches the rev limit? I have it set at 18-19 degrees from around 3000-3500, when should I increase it to 24-25 and in what kind of increments? My knock settings are 2500RPM, 40 base and 21 increments if anyone is interested.
12-24-2003, 04:41 AM
#55
Race Director
"According to Danno, the stock timing isn't agressive at all."
This is actually in the partial-throttle/mid-range part of the map. Under full-throttle under boost, like the upper 1/3rd of the Link's 3D map, I agree with Travis, in that the stock maps will have too much advance. On the GURU chips, I run less advance than Autothority or SuperChips on the entire map.
"Link uses the stock distributor right? Is there any mechanical advance? "
Rage2, the TDC pick-up for ignition is off the reference-sensor. The distributor only comes in after-the-fact when the spark has been initiated by the EFI-box to the ignitor/coil combination. The distributor won't have any effect on ignition timing unless you have programmed in so much ignition advance that you run off the end of the rotor
. Imagine if you've got 100-degrees of ignition advance. The spark will be generated by the EFI-box at 100-BTDC to fire the coil and it'll try to jump the gap from the center of the distributor cap to the outer plug wires, but the rotor will still be sitting on the previous plug wire somewhere... heh, heh...
Hey, that might actually work as a safety mechanism, a narrow rotor that will pass the spark only within a safe range... hmmm....
"THis is from Danno.....I wonder how this translates into an actual offset value that we can put in the static timing variable. "
Again, back to my previous post on how the base-timing is set. The timing-adaptor board is what sets the base-timing mark. It's keyed off the 58.4-degree BTDC magnet on the flywheel that's picked up by the the reference sensor. The timing adaptor board on the Link EFI boxes then converts this into a signal that the main board uses. It's got a 4-position jumper switch like on PC motherboards. The binary number coded by this 4-digit DIP switch is then multiplied by 5 and the resulting number is the countdown to the base-timing number.
So if you've got the adaptor board set to binary 11 (1011), then the offset from the trigger is 11x5=55. Delaying that amount from the 58.4-degrees BTDC magnet, gives 58.4-55.0 = 3.4 degrees BTDC is base-timing. Then the ignition values in the ignition maps is added to that number. So if you have 15-degrees BTDC in your igniton-map, this translates into 15+3.4 degrees = 18.4 degrees BTDC of actual igntion advance in reality.
Now, I prefer to set the timing adaptor-board to binary 12 (1100) so that the offset is 12x5=60-degrees from the 58.4-degree reference mark. This results in base-timing of 1.6 ATDC. Not only is this closer to 0-degrees, it's also on the safe side of TDC because actual ignition values will be lower than what's programmed into the tables. So 15-degrees in the igniton map translates into 15-1.6=13.4 degrees of actual ignition advance.
In both these cases, the static-advance number is set to zero to illustrate how base-timing works. Once you figure out the actual mechanical layout of the reference-sensor and how the timing adaptor-board works, you can then dial in the correction factor into the static-advance to get true 0-degree base-timing.
"After talking with Link USA, it waould apprear that the static timing on a 944 is about 10 degrees."
That's about right. As stated on the very last page of the manual, in the as-delivered configuration, the Link EFI boxes come with the DIP switches on the timing-adaptor board set to binary 9 (1001), which results in a base-timing number of 58.4-(9x5)= 13.4 degrees BTDC. You then have to manually enter that offset value into the static-advance menu to restore base-timing to 0-degrees. Then your timing maps will represent actual degrees of advance.
I'm not sure this is the safest way to ship these boxes. Since if you do a MASTER RESET to zero all the settings to default, you'll end up with zero in the static-advance box and end up with the default of 13.4-degrees BTDC of base-timing. Very dangerous IMO, so that's why I set all my boxes to be safe with 1.6 degrees ATDC by default with zero in the static-advance field.
Also a note on using the cam-gear to inspect timing. You'll have to multiply your dial-back-to-zero timing guns by 2x to account for the gear-reduction in the cam. Also the cam-gear mark may not be exactly at zero either. This is due to belt-stretch and wear. Also if your head has been milled or you're using an adjustable cam-gear, that mark may not line up with the outer mark on the cam-cover. You might want to verify with the mark on the flywheel or make a new mark in front on the crank-pulley to be entirely accurate.
I'll be dyno-tuning a Link EFI system on the dyno on Jan.10th if anyone would like to come and watch.
This is actually in the partial-throttle/mid-range part of the map. Under full-throttle under boost, like the upper 1/3rd of the Link's 3D map, I agree with Travis, in that the stock maps will have too much advance. On the GURU chips, I run less advance than Autothority or SuperChips on the entire map.
"Link uses the stock distributor right? Is there any mechanical advance? "
Rage2, the TDC pick-up for ignition is off the reference-sensor. The distributor only comes in after-the-fact when the spark has been initiated by the EFI-box to the ignitor/coil combination. The distributor won't have any effect on ignition timing unless you have programmed in so much ignition advance that you run off the end of the rotor
. Imagine if you've got 100-degrees of ignition advance. The spark will be generated by the EFI-box at 100-BTDC to fire the coil and it'll try to jump the gap from the center of the distributor cap to the outer plug wires, but the rotor will still be sitting on the previous plug wire somewhere... heh, heh... Hey, that might actually work as a safety mechanism, a narrow rotor that will pass the spark only within a safe range... hmmm...."THis is from Danno.....I wonder how this translates into an actual offset value that we can put in the static timing variable. "
Again, back to my previous post on how the base-timing is set. The timing-adaptor board is what sets the base-timing mark. It's keyed off the 58.4-degree BTDC magnet on the flywheel that's picked up by the the reference sensor. The timing adaptor board on the Link EFI boxes then converts this into a signal that the main board uses. It's got a 4-position jumper switch like on PC motherboards. The binary number coded by this 4-digit DIP switch is then multiplied by 5 and the resulting number is the countdown to the base-timing number.
So if you've got the adaptor board set to binary 11 (1011), then the offset from the trigger is 11x5=55. Delaying that amount from the 58.4-degrees BTDC magnet, gives 58.4-55.0 = 3.4 degrees BTDC is base-timing. Then the ignition values in the ignition maps is added to that number. So if you have 15-degrees BTDC in your igniton-map, this translates into 15+3.4 degrees = 18.4 degrees BTDC of actual igntion advance in reality.
Now, I prefer to set the timing adaptor-board to binary 12 (1100) so that the offset is 12x5=60-degrees from the 58.4-degree reference mark. This results in base-timing of 1.6 ATDC. Not only is this closer to 0-degrees, it's also on the safe side of TDC because actual ignition values will be lower than what's programmed into the tables. So 15-degrees in the igniton map translates into 15-1.6=13.4 degrees of actual ignition advance.
In both these cases, the static-advance number is set to zero to illustrate how base-timing works. Once you figure out the actual mechanical layout of the reference-sensor and how the timing adaptor-board works, you can then dial in the correction factor into the static-advance to get true 0-degree base-timing.
"After talking with Link USA, it waould apprear that the static timing on a 944 is about 10 degrees."
That's about right. As stated on the very last page of the manual, in the as-delivered configuration, the Link EFI boxes come with the DIP switches on the timing-adaptor board set to binary 9 (1001), which results in a base-timing number of 58.4-(9x5)= 13.4 degrees BTDC. You then have to manually enter that offset value into the static-advance menu to restore base-timing to 0-degrees. Then your timing maps will represent actual degrees of advance.
I'm not sure this is the safest way to ship these boxes. Since if you do a MASTER RESET to zero all the settings to default, you'll end up with zero in the static-advance box and end up with the default of 13.4-degrees BTDC of base-timing. Very dangerous IMO, so that's why I set all my boxes to be safe with 1.6 degrees ATDC by default with zero in the static-advance field.
Also a note on using the cam-gear to inspect timing. You'll have to multiply your dial-back-to-zero timing guns by 2x to account for the gear-reduction in the cam. Also the cam-gear mark may not be exactly at zero either. This is due to belt-stretch and wear. Also if your head has been milled or you're using an adjustable cam-gear, that mark may not line up with the outer mark on the cam-cover. You might want to verify with the mark on the flywheel or make a new mark in front on the crank-pulley to be entirely accurate.
I'll be dyno-tuning a Link EFI system on the dyno on Jan.10th if anyone would like to come and watch.
Last edited by Danno; 12-24-2003 at 05:38 AM.
12-24-2003, 05:04 AM
#56
Race Director
That is god damn confusing... I have a 10 static timing value in my PCL, and put in some values resembling the stock turbo s ROW map B951S gave me. So you are saying that the timing that is returned in my data log is not that, but some function of some potentially random dip switches on my board that I cant easily identify and that I have not been told about by the developers of this box and neither is it in the manual? I am confused by all this. I would love to see your PCL after dyno tuning!!!!!!!!!!!! You get much love.
12-24-2003, 06:07 AM
#57
Race Director
"That is god damn confusing... I have a 10 static timing value in my PCL, and put in some values resembling the stock turbo s ROW map B951S gave me... So you are saying that the timing that is returned in my data log is not that,...I am confused by all this."
You're pretty darn close, hang in there! Just use 13.4-degrees for your static-advance value and that should be closer to 0-degree base-timing. Then when you scale the TurboS 3D partial-throttle maps onto the Link's 3D map, make sure you scale it onto the bottom 3 load rows below 120kPa (everything above 5psi on the stock DME uses the last single-stripe WOT map). So just above the 120kPa load row, you enter the values of the full-load/WOT map from the TurboS + 2 degrees (notice the big jump in values between the last high-load rwo ont he partiel-throttle maps down to the WOT map ). That leaves three more rows of data to program that's beyond the resolution of the stock Motronic. You'll want to scale those upper rows downwards similar to B951S's second chart on the 1st page of thread. At full-load 240kPa (20psi), you'll want no more than 17-18-degrees BTDC of ignition advance maximum. The little valley at max-boost around 3500-4000rpm should also drop down to 13-14 degrees or so, then build it back up as RPMs increase.
You're pretty darn close, hang in there!
Just use 13.4-degrees for your static-advance value and that should be closer to 0-degree base-timing. Then when you scale the TurboS 3D partial-throttle maps onto the Link's 3D map, make sure you scale it onto the bottom 3 load rows below 120kPa (everything above 5psi on the stock DME uses the last single-stripe WOT map). So just above the 120kPa load row, you enter the values of the full-load/WOT map from the TurboS + 2 degrees (notice the big jump in values between the last high-load rwo ont he partiel-throttle maps down to the WOT map ). That leaves three more rows of data to program that's beyond the resolution of the stock Motronic. You'll want to scale those upper rows downwards similar to B951S's second chart on the 1st page of thread. At full-load 240kPa (20psi), you'll want no more than 17-18-degrees BTDC of ignition advance maximum. The little valley at max-boost around 3500-4000rpm should also drop down to 13-14 degrees or so, then build it back up as RPMs increase.
12-25-2003, 02:12 AM
#60
Race Director
Link NZ have not mentioned the dip switch issue at all... hence my confusion. So I am not sure whats going on there. There is a misunderstanding as tuners of the Link product here, two that I know of, mentioned that the link values in the table are on top of the static field input. However, this does not seem to be the case. Link were closed when I called them yesterday. I will catch up soon. I think I am right, however confused by the dip switch issue. There is no mention of it in the manual. However, I know there is a new one on the way...