A Tale of Two Turbochargers
11-26-2016, 02:12 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
A Tale of Two Turbochargers
A long rant without any redeeming value or technical contributions, so be forewarned. Move on unless you are bored.
It was the best of times for more power, but the worst of times for my smoky, leaky, tired engine. After an engine rebuild, a new Garrett hybrid, and a 3” exhaust it was time for some boost! Within a few hundred miles, the car was smoking worse than before the rebuild! Not good! I performed an extensive investigation, compression and leak down tests, installed oil restrictors and finally determined that the brand new turbo was leaking oil from the turbine side into the new down pipe and coating my nice new exhaust system. I work overseas and my leave was over, and the next step was postponed while I flew off to the desert. What to do? In order to avoid rendering the car inoperable and minimize the downtime, I decided to buy another identical turbo and just swap it out at the beginning of my next leave because there would not be enough time to remove, ship, inspect, rebuild, ship, and install it before I had to leave again. On the first day of my next leave I swapped it out for turbo #2 and all was well for about 100 miles, then it started smoking worse than the first one! Come on, two in a row.
So, another call to the vendor to discuss the situation and he wanted me to send him turbo #1 for an inspection but was hinting that it was my car and not his product. I was skeptical since both turbos smoked and hybrid Garrett’s used to have a bad reputation for smoking. After some discussions with a good friend and 951 expert, I decided to retrieve turbo #1 from the trash can and send it to Charlie at Evergreen for an independent evaluation. Charlie took it apart and gave me three reasons for the smoking: (1) the main reason is the Garrett single shaft seal design that is prone to smoke (the KKK’s have dual seals according to Charlie); (2) sloppy machine work - the bearing bores were not concentric with the shaft causing uneven bearing/shaft alignment/wear and increased clearances; (3) damage to the bearings due to trash in the oil. Trash in the oil is on me and I have since learned is a very common problem on a fresh engine. Never had an issue before with other engines and I know the block was spotless but I guess I did not scrub the crank good enough after the perp drilling. OK, I screwed up, blame all issues with turbo #1 on me. But, why did turbo #2 smoke worse than the first one? The oil/filter had been changed several times before turbo #2 was installed, so trash is not the issue with it. Evergreen installed dual seals, machined everything for the proper clearances/concentricity, installed new bearings in turbo #1 rev1 and a friend swapped it out before my next leave. Voila! No smoke! The car runs great and after another 2,000 miles we cannot make it smoke! Believe me, we have been trying. My car was not the problem, it was the turbochargers all along.
Another call to the vendor with the rest of the story. He is still blaming my car for turbo #2 smoking despite the fact that turbo #1 rev1 does not smoke. The reason it does not smoke is because it has dual seals and is properly assembled! Vendor also stated he was not familiar with the dual seal modification. Uh, OK, what? He has been selling rebuilt KKK’s and Garrett hybrids for 15-20 years! At this point the vendor was only willing to warranty turbo #2 and he recently returned it to me with a new center section and looking like brand new. If the problem is truly my car, why warranty turbo #2 and why does #1 rev1 not smoke? These questions will never get answers. I would have preferred a refund, but due to the time elapsed and my decision to charge ahead and buy two, that may not be reasonable on my part. Anyway, based on this experience, I will never install another Garrett hybrid unless is has been taken apart, dual seals installed and properly reassembled, even if it is brand new! We are getting low quality third world work for a first world price. I sent turbo #2 to Evergreen for the dual seal modification and just got it back. Since the center section was new, it was not an expensive modification and was well worth it. Wish I had known in the beginning. Live and learn. Now what to do, put turbo #2 rev1 on the shelf as a spare or sell it?
The moral of the story is that Garrett Turbochargers blow…air out of one side and oil out of the other! I hope your experience with them has been different than mine.
It was the best of times for more power, but the worst of times for my smoky, leaky, tired engine. After an engine rebuild, a new Garrett hybrid, and a 3” exhaust it was time for some boost! Within a few hundred miles, the car was smoking worse than before the rebuild! Not good! I performed an extensive investigation, compression and leak down tests, installed oil restrictors and finally determined that the brand new turbo was leaking oil from the turbine side into the new down pipe and coating my nice new exhaust system. I work overseas and my leave was over, and the next step was postponed while I flew off to the desert. What to do? In order to avoid rendering the car inoperable and minimize the downtime, I decided to buy another identical turbo and just swap it out at the beginning of my next leave because there would not be enough time to remove, ship, inspect, rebuild, ship, and install it before I had to leave again. On the first day of my next leave I swapped it out for turbo #2 and all was well for about 100 miles, then it started smoking worse than the first one! Come on, two in a row.
So, another call to the vendor to discuss the situation and he wanted me to send him turbo #1 for an inspection but was hinting that it was my car and not his product. I was skeptical since both turbos smoked and hybrid Garrett’s used to have a bad reputation for smoking. After some discussions with a good friend and 951 expert, I decided to retrieve turbo #1 from the trash can and send it to Charlie at Evergreen for an independent evaluation. Charlie took it apart and gave me three reasons for the smoking: (1) the main reason is the Garrett single shaft seal design that is prone to smoke (the KKK’s have dual seals according to Charlie); (2) sloppy machine work - the bearing bores were not concentric with the shaft causing uneven bearing/shaft alignment/wear and increased clearances; (3) damage to the bearings due to trash in the oil. Trash in the oil is on me and I have since learned is a very common problem on a fresh engine. Never had an issue before with other engines and I know the block was spotless but I guess I did not scrub the crank good enough after the perp drilling. OK, I screwed up, blame all issues with turbo #1 on me. But, why did turbo #2 smoke worse than the first one? The oil/filter had been changed several times before turbo #2 was installed, so trash is not the issue with it. Evergreen installed dual seals, machined everything for the proper clearances/concentricity, installed new bearings in turbo #1 rev1 and a friend swapped it out before my next leave. Voila! No smoke! The car runs great and after another 2,000 miles we cannot make it smoke! Believe me, we have been trying. My car was not the problem, it was the turbochargers all along.
Another call to the vendor with the rest of the story. He is still blaming my car for turbo #2 smoking despite the fact that turbo #1 rev1 does not smoke. The reason it does not smoke is because it has dual seals and is properly assembled! Vendor also stated he was not familiar with the dual seal modification. Uh, OK, what? He has been selling rebuilt KKK’s and Garrett hybrids for 15-20 years! At this point the vendor was only willing to warranty turbo #2 and he recently returned it to me with a new center section and looking like brand new. If the problem is truly my car, why warranty turbo #2 and why does #1 rev1 not smoke? These questions will never get answers. I would have preferred a refund, but due to the time elapsed and my decision to charge ahead and buy two, that may not be reasonable on my part. Anyway, based on this experience, I will never install another Garrett hybrid unless is has been taken apart, dual seals installed and properly reassembled, even if it is brand new! We are getting low quality third world work for a first world price. I sent turbo #2 to Evergreen for the dual seal modification and just got it back. Since the center section was new, it was not an expensive modification and was well worth it. Wish I had known in the beginning. Live and learn. Now what to do, put turbo #2 rev1 on the shelf as a spare or sell it?
The moral of the story is that Garrett Turbochargers blow…air out of one side and oil out of the other! I hope your experience with them has been different than mine.
11-26-2016, 04:00 AM
#3
Professional Hoon
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I'd be quite annoyed.
If it's a hybrid, i'd blame the guy who build it.
If it's directly from garrett, you'd rarely see issues. They're build quite well.
If it's a hybrid, i'd blame the guy who build it.
If it's directly from garrett, you'd rarely see issues. They're build quite well.
11-26-2016, 07:05 AM
#4
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
It was a 360 degree journal bearing. TA31 Turbine Wheel and the Compressor is a 60 Trim T04E.
Or AKA Stage 3 60 trim. I will leave the vendor out of it, but it is a Garrett design issue.
Or AKA Stage 3 60 trim. I will leave the vendor out of it, but it is a Garrett design issue.
11-26-2016, 07:38 AM
#6
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I took few turbos apart and always got the impression KKK/Schwitzer/BW were beter build quality compared to Garrett.
11-26-2016, 10:25 AM
#7
Rennlist Member
Good info for the future, sorry to read about the issues and the pain in the derriere!