Voith

Idiotic comparison. 944 was built in the seventies and it blew away everything bmw had to offer and so does carrera gt v10 engine nowdays compared to anything bmw.

944 is 928 with useless **** removed. Also check out MM's na developments if you want 100hp+/l 944 na.

lee101315

I wouldn't even consider BMW vs Porsche a fair argument, especially since the OP compared a 4 door sedan to a 2+2 pure sports car.

Usually people compare Audi, Mercedes, and BMW against each other with Porsche being left out, unless you're comparing their Macan against a X3 or GLK.

Cheburator

It is not idiotic - it is stating the truth based on real life experience and not hearsay. How many performance BMWs have you run? How many performance engines have you build? I have seen MM's developments. So what? I have build a 93hp/ltr engine and I know what it takes. Hand on heart though, I would not dare say that my engine is good for 100,000km+ without a rebuild.

As for the Carrera V10 GT engine - again you are full of **** - the S85 makes the same hp/ltr, same Nm/ltr and was fitted to a saloon car, offered with 100,000km warranty by BMW, coping well with daily grind, extended service intervals and idiot drivers. Remind me - when did the Carrera GT engine win any accolades?

Voith

Remember me when Carrera GT's were available for 7000 euros and when E60 was considered quality or good looking car. Also remember me where do you get extreme risk car that is out of production for 6 years with warranty?

Ive owned e39 528i for 8 years in that time I covered over 300.000km with it, rebuild engine from scratch since original desintegrated, replaced everything under car twice, replaced window regulator twice, rebuild trunk wiring harness twice, replaced trunk lock three times, replaced headlight adjusters, replaced total **** headlight reflectors, replaced locks, replaced fuel pump three times, window washer motor 2 times, replaced fuel pump housing, replaced LCM module, had brake oil boil, etc etc etc.


In the meanwhile I worked on at least 50 bmws, e60 M5's included so I know my way around them. I wouldn't touch M5 though as its a compromise with everything wrong mixed together imo.

Accolades? Seriously? Casio has accolades because it is almost infinitely more acurate than Patek, so what?

10 years old e60 M5 is financial suicide, no matter how much it was taken care of since it is complex machine and much of its parts are reaching end of life and needs to be replaced.

944 is race breed car from the seventies and properly built with 95% factory parts will run circles around any factory bmw new or old and that goes for 928 too.

I am trying to build one at this time and goal is to 100% build it MYSELF. Happy?

Cheburator

I am trying not to raise to the bait... But I feel I have to...

1. I said performance BMW, not E39 528i

I own/ have owned the following: E30 M3, E30 320iS, E30 325i Cabrio, E28 M5, E24 M635CSi, E39 M5, Z3M Coupe, Z4M Coupe, E36 325i Coupe, E61 M5, E39 540i, E53 X5 4.8iS, E46 M3 SMG, E45 M3 6-spd. Some of these were bought brand new/nearly new, others were on 100k+. Do you think I am qualified to comment on BMW's reliability?

2. The faults you listed with your car are perfectly normal with most cars. I just had to replace both window regulators on my 996 GT3 Club Sport - the car has 45kilometers and has been always garaged. I also had to replace the reverse light switch and the boot lock is temperamental as the boot light sometimes does not come on. It was Olaf Manthey's personal car and always maintained by Manthey Racing. Does that recent faults mean that the 996 GT3 is a **** car? My brother owns a Cayenne Turbo, which has had over $40k of warranty work by the supplying dealer in Las Vegas. Does it mean that Caynnes are ****?

3. If you knew anything about engines, you would be aware that the S85 is more exotic and has more avant-garde technical solutions than the Carrera GT engine and is with more modern tech.

4. You speak of the M5 is a financial suicide - as if a 944 is not? Having just paid EUR221 for a single ****ing pinion bearing for the 5R transmission in my race car, I am not the happiest bunny in the World...

5. As for the 944 being race bred - err, it is not. It is a sports car, which happens to be very good, but the 4-cylinder engine for example is anything but race bread. Having narrowly avoided 2/2/6 failure in both my 944 and 928 race cars, the open deck design, the heavy rods/piston assembly, the alusil bores...

6. As for building the engines myself - well, yeah, been there, done that, got the medal, sorry, the dyno sheets. I think I can take the head off and put it back on in the 944 in a day. And I came up by myself with how to upgrade early Turbos to M030 calipers without the need for new hubs, 2-piece discs or machining. I can change a 928 clutch in about 35mins. By the way, I work in an Investment Bank as a day job

7. 944 is the best thing since sliced bread was invented and BMW should be bankrupt by now

8. Let's just agree to disagree...

944crazy

Little bit OT, but how did you do this? Adapters for the calipers I assume, but which disks?

Voith

1. 528i has performance steering which M5 lacks which is a real shame. Also didn't fell on my head hard enough to daily drive M5 300kkm+.

2. No its not normal to have to replace every single thing below the car every 3 years, that is only normal on bmw, others just wear an arm or two, this one eats everything. I won't comment Cayenne.

3. If bmw v10 is more exotic and avant-garde to you than CGT engine, fine. I wonder if anybody agrees with this.

4. 944 is not financial suicide and is apples to oranges. In 30 years all M5's that ware half as neglected as most 944s will not exist at all, they will be recycled to garden chairs and stuff like that, so comparison won't be possible at all.

5. Are you familiar with group B rally, the nirvana of motorsports? It is considered to be the greatest motorspot history of man kind and somehow mostly consisted of 4 and 5 cylinder cars. And guess what, 944 is group B homologated. So in a nut shell 944, first porsche cup car that raced at LeMans multiple times in almost 100% identical chasis as road car and on top of that homologated group B race car is somehow anything but race bread? Next tell me 911 is not race breed either.

6. Im IT and serviced my share of cars and bikes, Im not an expert by any stretch but I did fix more cars than I broke.

7. No, but if you are fat you cant go as fast as if you are thin. Basic logic that applies to cars as much as anything. Feeding fat kid with steroids to win the olympics is not the smart way to go about it.

Dan87951

I would pay good money to see this! What is your secret?

Cheburator

I am familiar - my dad used to rally a Group B car in the 1980s - a Lada VFTS and then a Nissan 240RS. I hate to say it to you, but the 928 is also homologated for Group B - I have both the 944 and the 928 FIA Fiche at home


The secret is that on the 928 the lower bellhousing splits So 4 bolts to undo and presto, the clutch is there to fall on your head. No need to remove transaxle and pull torque tube backwards. I guess the advantage of a clean slate design and not having to adopt VW/Audi parts

I was a bit disingenuous... I used standard 928 S4/944 M030 discs. You need to flip the LR adaptors the "wrong" way around and the hubs need to be machined radially by, from memory, 1.5mm. The disc then is mounted the normal way over the hub - like a M030 disc - and not behind the hub like the original set up. The hub centers it perfectly, because the mating face is good anyway and you have just had the diameter precision machined too. If you want, you can fit a centering ring, but it is almost an overkill. Have done 6 races like that and it works perfectly. Next mini brake project - carbon fiber backing plates and cold air feed pipes.

Voith

So how is it anything but race breed?

944 even evolved trough racetracks and parts trickled down to road cars.

Unfortunately that was not the case with 928, they focused more on how to add 4 doors or pickup addition to 928 than anything else.

blade7

Don't some old Vauxhalls split the bellhousing in a similar way, also the 968 ?
I have no axe to grind with you Cheb but qualifying all your 944 bashing because you have a 944 doesn't wash really. And your 86 turbo isn't a turbo S by the way, that came out in 88, Peace. .

Cheburator

I am not bashing it - just bringing balance to the discussion. I like my 944 - sometimes love can be an irrational thing. I like it enough that I bought it without test driving it. I like it enough that I keep spending money on it and I am always seeking ways to make it better/faster. Why would I come up with cost effective vernier pulleys otherwise? Ask Tom at Augment about them. Also working on cost effective rose-joints and ITB kit for the 8v engines.

Unfortunately, I cannot help it but take the **** when people start frothing around the mouth when they speak about the 944. Yes, it is a great car, but so is the 928, and some 911s and some ///M cars as well as the E500 from the same era and so on and so forth. A 944 Turbo or an R33 Skyline? Or a Mk4 Supra 6-spd? Or a Sylvia S14? Or a 928 GTS 5-spd or a sorted E36 M3?

I know my Turbo is not an original S, but last time I checked it had a transplanted Turbo S engine, Turbo S brakes and a few other things. Perhaps I should call it The Mongrel, that it really is?

blade7

That Turbo S engine may actually be lower spec than what came out, the brakes common old MO30, and it seems like you've hacked them about anyway. Add in the bling you've cobbled up and it sounds like a dogs dinner and a mongrel to me.

Cheburator

They are always best... It is a shame that CSCC is a sucker for originality. I have seen first hand what a well build 9.5:1 2.5 16v can do with a ball bearing turbo, proper exhaust headers + exhaust, a nice intercooler and MOTEC. That was one fast and very driveable car... But I think only the block, head, crank and cams were left original...

blade7

Where did you see that car ?