1000whp 951? strength of stock engine parts
11-18-2012, 10:35 PM
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For theory - fine.
If you want the 'academic' answer, then first lesson is to accept that some motors have inherent advantages/disadvantages compared to others...
Our engines have a huge bore, and there for big heavy pistons compared to the vast majority of imports. About the only one with a comparable bore-size, is the WRX, and they are typically staying under 7000rpm too. The large bore also means that the headstuds are farther apart. This makes it harder to prevent the cylinder head from lifting/flexing under high cylinder pressure.
The 944 cylinder head is not going to get you there - not realistically (for what that is worth in this thread). Using a 968 head would be the best starting choice, as it is DOHC, 16-valve, and the highest flowing stock head. I doubt there is any stock production head with greater flow (maybe the F20c).
Our engine is open-deck, with a habit of cylinder-walking. Yes, you can close the deck with a deckplate, but that still doesn't solve the head lift/flex issue. Additionally, our cylinders are just aluminum, so again this must be addressed by some sort of sleeving. However, with enough power the entire block starts to flex/twist... So now you need to mill a completely new block made from better material & designed with high-hp in mind. I HIGHLY doubt anyone could get this done for $5000. This isn't a Honda where the R&D can be easily absorbed into the manufacturing. No, even if someone did do all the work to actually mill a new 944 block, there would only be a handful of people willing to purchase it - because in very small volumes, the milled block would be extraordinarily expensive.
Yet another roadbump is the oiling system. Even at factory RPMs the oil-pump is cavitating. Raising the rev-limit only exacerbates oiling issues. So a dry-sump is a must-have for a high revving car (even that Honda had a dry-sump).
Regarding peak-hp, I don't think I've ever seen a 951 make peak hp at red-line, ever. Here is Duke's 3.0L with 968 head (the best flowing head available for our cars) 500+rwhp:
Duke Dyno
You can see it tapering off after ~6250rpm.
Here is Sid's at 520rwhp:
Sid Dyno
And his is plateauing after ~5500rpm.
With a big cam, and HUGE turbo, the power would continue to rise with RPMs... But high RPMs requires more yet. Valve-train must be addressed, which means solid lifters, exotic valve material, EMS that can keep up, ect. In-addition, I'm not even sure if our transmissions would shift at ~9000rpm. Even in the DSM world, which easily revs to 8000rpm, getting transmissions to shift at really high RPMs requires a bit of work. Furthermore, we don't have the toughest transmissions, and are quite limited for upgrades. Again that Honda was getting ready to install straight-cut dog-engagement gears - yet one more thing we don't even have the option of.
No, these cars engines are not similar to Honda-4s, Mitsubishi-4s, ect. If you must compare them to another engine, then compare them to engines with similar bore & stroke such as a WRX Sti, or Chevy ~327.
Regarding the "tons of examples of everyday joes making 1000+hp honda's and toyota's", well proportionally there are tons more Hondas & Toyotas produced. There are easily 100x more civics produced than 944s. Then start including Integras/RSX/S2000/Prelude/Accord/ect, that number is quite a bit more yet. Furthermore, go to the road-track and see how many of these high-hp imports are there. The 944s strength is on the road-course, which is what most built 944s are directed to .
Finally, addressing Bob Norwood. He is an undoubtedly knowledgeable man. But he is not the end-all expert on the 944. In-fact, there are plenty of people on this board who would walk circles around Norwood, regarding the 944. Whats more is that I've never seen any dyno or other quantitative data backing up Norwood's claims regarding this "900hp engine". Furthermore, there is the ambiguous "road race trim". Exactly what does that mean? For a high-hp dedicated build, I would be using either a quality race-fuel, or alcohol. I see no claim that he made any power on pump-gasoline. Ask you self this: 900hp out of a 3L engine is 300hp / liter. Can you find any car that makes 300hp / liter on pump-gasoline? The only chance would be one that revs to 10,000rpm. Pump gasoline will only withstand so much cylinder pressure, period.
All that said, I'm sure someone with a lot of $ could build a very high-hp 951. But the better question is why? If it is just to see if it could be done, then that is kinda moot... With enough money you can make nearly anything produce big numbers - so "proving" that it can be done again, on a different motor is redundant. Nope, people would rather have a realistic power goal, have fun with these cars, and enjoy them for what they are.
If you want the 'academic' answer, then first lesson is to accept that some motors have inherent advantages/disadvantages compared to others...
Our engines have a huge bore, and there for big heavy pistons compared to the vast majority of imports. About the only one with a comparable bore-size, is the WRX, and they are typically staying under 7000rpm too. The large bore also means that the headstuds are farther apart. This makes it harder to prevent the cylinder head from lifting/flexing under high cylinder pressure.
The 944 cylinder head is not going to get you there - not realistically (for what that is worth in this thread). Using a 968 head would be the best starting choice, as it is DOHC, 16-valve, and the highest flowing stock head. I doubt there is any stock production head with greater flow (maybe the F20c).
Our engine is open-deck, with a habit of cylinder-walking. Yes, you can close the deck with a deckplate, but that still doesn't solve the head lift/flex issue. Additionally, our cylinders are just aluminum, so again this must be addressed by some sort of sleeving. However, with enough power the entire block starts to flex/twist... So now you need to mill a completely new block made from better material & designed with high-hp in mind. I HIGHLY doubt anyone could get this done for $5000. This isn't a Honda where the R&D can be easily absorbed into the manufacturing. No, even if someone did do all the work to actually mill a new 944 block, there would only be a handful of people willing to purchase it - because in very small volumes, the milled block would be extraordinarily expensive.
Yet another roadbump is the oiling system. Even at factory RPMs the oil-pump is cavitating. Raising the rev-limit only exacerbates oiling issues. So a dry-sump is a must-have for a high revving car (even that Honda had a dry-sump).
Regarding peak-hp, I don't think I've ever seen a 951 make peak hp at red-line, ever. Here is Duke's 3.0L with 968 head (the best flowing head available for our cars) 500+rwhp:
Duke Dyno
You can see it tapering off after ~6250rpm.
Here is Sid's at 520rwhp:
Sid Dyno
And his is plateauing after ~5500rpm.
With a big cam, and HUGE turbo, the power would continue to rise with RPMs... But high RPMs requires more yet. Valve-train must be addressed, which means solid lifters, exotic valve material, EMS that can keep up, ect. In-addition, I'm not even sure if our transmissions would shift at ~9000rpm. Even in the DSM world, which easily revs to 8000rpm, getting transmissions to shift at really high RPMs requires a bit of work. Furthermore, we don't have the toughest transmissions, and are quite limited for upgrades. Again that Honda was getting ready to install straight-cut dog-engagement gears - yet one more thing we don't even have the option of.
No, these cars engines are not similar to Honda-4s, Mitsubishi-4s, ect. If you must compare them to another engine, then compare them to engines with similar bore & stroke such as a WRX Sti, or Chevy ~327.
Regarding the "tons of examples of everyday joes making 1000+hp honda's and toyota's", well proportionally there are tons more Hondas & Toyotas produced. There are easily 100x more civics produced than 944s. Then start including Integras/RSX/S2000/Prelude/Accord/ect, that number is quite a bit more yet. Furthermore, go to the road-track and see how many of these high-hp imports are there. The 944s strength is on the road-course, which is what most built 944s are directed to .
Finally, addressing Bob Norwood. He is an undoubtedly knowledgeable man. But he is not the end-all expert on the 944. In-fact, there are plenty of people on this board who would walk circles around Norwood, regarding the 944. Whats more is that I've never seen any dyno or other quantitative data backing up Norwood's claims regarding this "900hp engine". Furthermore, there is the ambiguous "road race trim". Exactly what does that mean? For a high-hp dedicated build, I would be using either a quality race-fuel, or alcohol. I see no claim that he made any power on pump-gasoline. Ask you self this: 900hp out of a 3L engine is 300hp / liter. Can you find any car that makes 300hp / liter on pump-gasoline? The only chance would be one that revs to 10,000rpm. Pump gasoline will only withstand so much cylinder pressure, period.
All that said, I'm sure someone with a lot of $ could build a very high-hp 951. But the better question is why? If it is just to see if it could be done, then that is kinda moot... With enough money you can make nearly anything produce big numbers - so "proving" that it can be done again, on a different motor is redundant. Nope, people would rather have a realistic power goal, have fun with these cars, and enjoy them for what they are.
so from your info i can summarize that the probem with the 944 engines is
1) weak block
2) weak piston walls
4) head bolts too far apart to keep head on the engine
5) revs too low
6) head doesnt flow enough air
7) too big of a bore for high power
8) oil issues
the honda K engine have a stock bore stroke of 86x86mm witn 1.9L
the 944 engine have a bore stroke varying from 100x78.9mm with 2.5L
the 2013 corvette v8 engine has a bore stroke varying 104.8 x 101.6mm with 7L
the 968 engine has a bore stroke of 104x87.8 with 3L
the 1000hp engine i referenced was increased to 2.6L so that is more than the stock 944, i'm not sure the bore stroke of it though...
so it actually seems that the 1000hp engine is much like a stock 944na engine... have to check the actual numbers though... it could still be more of a stroker.
LSM will make a billet block in less than 4 weeks for $5,995, they are just the first google listing i found, might be cheaper options too
Manufacturing Billet Blocks starting at $5995
In as little as four weeks
In as little as four weeks
i hardly think anyone on here can match up with Bob Norwood (who holds or once held many land speed WORLD records and made the most powerful 944/968 based engine ever as far as I know), but that's just my opinion and may not be correct, the guy has a 4,000hp 4 cylinder car who's engine looks much like a 944 engine, perhaps he even copied the 944 as his base model for it?
regardless of these points, i dont think you get very far with starting with the attitude that it can't be done...
"A Formula For Success: Believe in the Do not in the Don't Believe that you Will not that you Won't More comes with a Yes than with a No The first step in Achieving is Thinking it so."
11-18-2012, 10:56 PM
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The headflow of the 968 head is sufficient. Keeping the head on is a problem.
The Honda had at most an 89mm bore. It made the rest up with stroke. These are two very different motors. The only real similarity is that they are both inline-4.
LSM states that they will manufacture starting at ~$6000 - they are not going to draw, R&D, and manufacture a 944 block for $6000, not even close.
Again, Bob Norwood is not the end-all expert in everything. And he definitely isn't the expert with the 944. I've never seen any quantified contribution he has made to the 944. He built the Doom car(s), but good luck getting any real info - such as build specs, dyno plots, logs, 1/4mi speed, ect. Hell, it is hard to even find detailed pictures of it!
Great he has land speed records, and none of them using anything from a 944.
Nope, vaporware as far as I'm concerned. I too could write on my website that I made 900rwhp with a 944 engine too. But, unless I put up some proof, then is BS.
His 4000hp car engine doesn't look anything like the 944 engine, unless you consider that they are both inline-4 cylinders:
The Honda had at most an 89mm bore. It made the rest up with stroke. These are two very different motors. The only real similarity is that they are both inline-4.
LSM states that they will manufacture starting at ~$6000 - they are not going to draw, R&D, and manufacture a 944 block for $6000, not even close.
Again, Bob Norwood is not the end-all expert in everything. And he definitely isn't the expert with the 944. I've never seen any quantified contribution he has made to the 944. He built the Doom car(s), but good luck getting any real info - such as build specs, dyno plots, logs, 1/4mi speed, ect. Hell, it is hard to even find detailed pictures of it!
Great he has land speed records, and none of them using anything from a 944.
Nope, vaporware as far as I'm concerned. I too could write on my website that I made 900rwhp with a 944 engine too. But, unless I put up some proof, then is BS.
His 4000hp car engine doesn't look anything like the 944 engine, unless you consider that they are both inline-4 cylinders:
11-18-2012, 11:21 PM
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Start by doing a bit of research. Rogue has made huge contributions in pushing forward the 944 platform. He has made it pretty far with his attitude. I would listen a little. Then make some contributions and prove someone wrong with results.
11-18-2012, 11:34 PM
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i've also met the guy with the fastest street legal car in the world 2,000whp also saw his 1400hp showcar camaro, street car. he uses more head studs than come with the block...
i don't mean to put down what you guys are doing at all i think its awesome, i love it, but bob norwood is a legend and has probably forgot more about engines than anyone on this site every knew... that's just my opinion.
11-18-2012, 11:42 PM
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i've read what you guys are doing, sounds great, but what's keeping you from doing more? so figure out a way to keep the head on, doesn't seem impossible...
i've also met the guy with the fastest street legal car in the world 2,000whp also saw his 1400hp showcar camaro, street car. he uses more head studs than come with the block...
i don't mean to put down what you guys are doing at all i think its awesome, i love it, but bob norwood is a legend and has probably forgot more about engines than anyone on this site every knew... that's just my opinion.
i've also met the guy with the fastest street legal car in the world 2,000whp also saw his 1400hp showcar camaro, street car. he uses more head studs than come with the block...
i don't mean to put down what you guys are doing at all i think its awesome, i love it, but bob norwood is a legend and has probably forgot more about engines than anyone on this site every knew... that's just my opinion.
11-18-2012, 11:45 PM
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You say fastest street legal car in the world, he built it, and ran it at the Texas mile or somewhere and has the time slip to prove it, and it is registered for street use? You are confident it has 2000hp because he said so or because he has a quarter-mile time that confirms it?
Don't assume that people here and elsewhere haven't been probing the limits of power on the 944/968 platform, they have. As a practical matter a lot of motors have been sacrificed in the quest. Search around the various high HP builds and look at CEP, Chris White, Lindsey etc. along with what Rogue and Sid are doing, look at the 400ish Michael Mount 968 NA build and you will get an idea of what other people who are smart like Norwood the Legend are capable of and what it takes to do it. Reasonable people around here are setting their goals a fair bit lower than 1000hp.
I think if you come in and just claim that it could be done and hasn't been tried misunderstands the amount of solid thinking and experience that have been brought to bear on the problem. If you or Bob have ideas that have been shown to improve on what others have already done I'm sure people will be all ears.
Don't assume that people here and elsewhere haven't been probing the limits of power on the 944/968 platform, they have. As a practical matter a lot of motors have been sacrificed in the quest. Search around the various high HP builds and look at CEP, Chris White, Lindsey etc. along with what Rogue and Sid are doing, look at the 400ish Michael Mount 968 NA build and you will get an idea of what other people who are smart like Norwood the Legend are capable of and what it takes to do it. Reasonable people around here are setting their goals a fair bit lower than 1000hp.
I think if you come in and just claim that it could be done and hasn't been tried misunderstands the amount of solid thinking and experience that have been brought to bear on the problem. If you or Bob have ideas that have been shown to improve on what others have already done I'm sure people will be all ears.
11-19-2012, 12:02 AM
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There is impossible, and there is stupid impractical.
Refresh951 is correct - apparently you don't want to listen to anyone actually does something with these cars, rather you want to do some idol worshiping of a guy who has contributed exactly nothing to the 944 platform.
Give me a break. On one hand you say that they are "just motors", then you spew-out that somehow Bob knows more than the entirety of this forum like there is something magical about the 944 motor that everyone except Bob is incapable of understanding. 
Oh, and great way to insult any Tuner/Builder/Enthusiast on this board
I'm done here, that is enough troll-feeding for me.
Oh, and great way to insult any Tuner/Builder/Enthusiast on this board
I'm done here, that is enough troll-feeding for me.
11-19-2012, 12:13 AM
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I will be happy with 400hp... I didnt want to say anything but you sound like a troll dude, you need to chill out with worshiping someone that has done nothing for the 944 platform as Josh said.
11-19-2012, 01:13 AM
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You say fastest street legal car in the world, he built it, and ran it at the Texas mile or somewhere and has the time slip to prove it, and it is registered for street use? You are confident it has 2000hp because he said so or because he has a quarter-mile time that confirms it?
Don't assume that people here and elsewhere haven't been probing the limits of power on the 944/968 platform, they have. As a practical matter a lot of motors have been sacrificed in the quest. Search around the various high HP builds and look at CEP, Chris White, Lindsey etc. along with what Rogue and Sid are doing, look at the 400ish Michael Mount 968 NA build and you will get an idea of what other people who are smart like Norwood the Legend are capable of and what it takes to do it. Reasonable people around here are setting their goals a fair bit lower than 1000hp.
I think if you come in and just claim that it could be done and hasn't been tried misunderstands the amount of solid thinking and experience that have been brought to bear on the problem. If you or Bob have ideas that have been shown to improve on what others have already done I'm sure people will be all ears.
Don't assume that people here and elsewhere haven't been probing the limits of power on the 944/968 platform, they have. As a practical matter a lot of motors have been sacrificed in the quest. Search around the various high HP builds and look at CEP, Chris White, Lindsey etc. along with what Rogue and Sid are doing, look at the 400ish Michael Mount 968 NA build and you will get an idea of what other people who are smart like Norwood the Legend are capable of and what it takes to do it. Reasonable people around here are setting their goals a fair bit lower than 1000hp.
I think if you come in and just claim that it could be done and hasn't been tried misunderstands the amount of solid thinking and experience that have been brought to bear on the problem. If you or Bob have ideas that have been shown to improve on what others have already done I'm sure people will be all ears.
you guys are silly, Bob Norwood did the half million dollar Doom car back in 1998...
is this like a private club where egos trump reality?
11-19-2012, 01:20 AM
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There is impossible, and there is stupid impractical.
Refresh951 is correct - apparently you don't want to listen to anyone actually does something with these cars, rather you want to do some idol worshiping of a guy who has contributed exactly nothing to the 944 platform.
Give me a break. On one hand you say that they are "just motors", then you spew-out that somehow Bob knows more than the entirety of this forum like there is something magical about the 944 motor that everyone except Bob is incapable of understanding.
Oh, and great way to insult any Tuner/Builder/Enthusiast on this board
I'm done here, that is enough troll-feeding for me.
Refresh951 is correct - apparently you don't want to listen to anyone actually does something with these cars, rather you want to do some idol worshiping of a guy who has contributed exactly nothing to the 944 platform.
Give me a break. On one hand you say that they are "just motors", then you spew-out that somehow Bob knows more than the entirety of this forum like there is something magical about the 944 motor that everyone except Bob is incapable of understanding.
Oh, and great way to insult any Tuner/Builder/Enthusiast on this board
I'm done here, that is enough troll-feeding for me.
i didn't mean to hurt anyone's feeling but it seems like no one on this board wants to talk about anything except that you are right and everyone else, including Bob Norwood and his $500,000 968 record setting race car, not to mention is record setting Ferrari, and his record setting Lamborghini, and his most powerful 4cyl in the world is wrong, (and on and on for Bob), also the scores of 1000hp honda builders only get 1000hp because they have smaller bores, that just doesn't make sense.
please do not respond unless you have something that #1 makes sense #2 is a positive contribution
at this point let's just agree to disagree and be nice about it without pulling out your fake usernames with 15 posts on them to act like others agree with you, lol
11-19-2012, 01:28 AM
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you guys = the guy with the most powerful 944 engine costing $500,000 to build is wrong and me with the 2 car garage knows it all
me = thanks for the info but who are you? i think i'll stick with the guy with the world records thanks
get your ego's out of the way and really think about what you are saying it sounds crazy