TonyG > New Race Car Build Thread
 

Here we go....

Let me start with some history first.

There once was a race car built by Vision Motorsports 17 years ago. This happens to be the same people that build Orca, Shamoo, Flipper, and as well as several other similar 944 based race cars. The car was built for a person down here in the Los Angeles area Named Joe A.

Apparently Joe sold it to Craig V (here on Rennlist known as Landjet). Craig owned the car for several years and raced it in the PCA.

The car was a complete race car that had not run in several years (probably more than 3-4) and had been parked after an event where the car had a light engine fire. The owner reports that the engine is a little tired and has some blow by and fills up the catch can after a 45 minute race.

The car came up for sale on Rennlist and I purchased it.

I took possession of the car off the trailer on 7/14/2012.

I purchased the car for the shell and body and had intended to so a simple tub swap with all the suspension and drivetrain out of my current LS6 Red 951.

However, the "while you're in there bug" has already set in.

I have decided to take the bare tub, put it on a rotisserie and have it sand blasted, then to have the tub and interior powder coated. Then paint it, and put it all back nice and fresh as can be :-)


*Note - I will be using all my drivetrain and suspension from my red LS6 951. That said... there will be a ton of used race car parts coming up for sale sometime this weekend - on a separate thread.


** Note #2 - more pictures of the car available here: Http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951

Here are some before pics:

TonyG

Looks like right after a fresh paint job:
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/2.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/3.jpg
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And as it was originally before Landjet got it:

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/4.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/4.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/5.jpg

And how it is now... 6 days after I took possession of it.... mu ha ha :evilgrin:

As seen... on dollies getting rolled over to the sand blaster

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...721_132723.jpg

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...721_132659.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...721_132745.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...721_132729.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...721_132751.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...721_132805.jpg

:cheers: would love to see this as its coming along.

also, does the trans hang from that crossbrace that the cage attaches to?

The trans uses the stock hanger bar that attaches the stock location on the stock "frame rails".

TonyG

congrats.

estimate of weight when done ?

All that room to work in.....:bowdown:

Did this one have the trick front suspension Tony? If so, any pics?

I thought this was the copy of Orca

https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...ml#post8513939

I don't know....

Orca (and my car) are semi-tube frame chassis cars. As you can see from the pics of my car (which is the same for Orca), the cars have firewalls behind the driver. From that point back it's all tube frame. Likewise, from the strut towers forward it's all tube frame. And the cage on both cars extends through the front firewall with 4 bars to the strut towers.

These cars were acid dipped and stitch welded chassis.

These were cheater cars. Meant to comply with rules that said you had to have the stock firewall and stock suspension mounting points. These cars are examples of how you go to the absolute edge of the line... but don't cross it.


The car you have, on the other hand, looks like a stock chassis with a cage. I can't see from the pics if the cage ties in the strut towers or not. But I can see that there's no firewall behind the driver and I can see that all of the factory sheet metal structure (at least most of it) is present in the rear of the car. Also the floor pan appears to be stock.

The cage appears to be of their design... but it looks like the cage and car... was intended to be a street legal car.

It looks like a project that ran out of money!

The body work is also not what I've seen on any of their cars, but that doesn't mean much. The body work looks pretty nice and I could see them using it.

You should have taken the body work and made some molds of it! Big mistake not to....

Vision built lots of 944's while they were into building 944's. But there are only a small handful that were built like Orca and mine (only 3 that I can think of) with respect to the chassis.

I can show these pics to Dewain and see what the story is with the car (if he even built it).

TonyG

No. Not yet at least..... :-)

TonyG

Hey... BTW... I need a steering shaft setup. Mine seems to have some play where it crosses through the fire wall.

You got one?

TonyG

Be good to ask Dewain about that suspension too.

Make that two LART. I need one also. I will take a pic of it today.

Looks like a it will be a fun racer Tony!!!

Mine has a fitting welded on it for a steering wheel disconnect, which came with the car. I would rather use my Rothsport setup on my current car so I need a replacement setup. Plus it seems that there is some sort of bearing/bushing at the firewall that seems to have a lot of slop. I can't compare that to my current red car because it's all put together.

Is that bushing/bearing at the firewall a separate piece that's still available?

TonyG

Do you mean these guys Tony? Cuz I'm having the same problem. Right at the firewall.


It goes through this piece behind the pedal cluster, through firewall.


http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s...IMAG0155-1.jpg




And this bearing is pressed over the steering rod /shaft. Need the bearing. I think there is some rubber or plastic spacer/collar in between this piece and the one above that deteriorates. But I don't have that anymore, I think It fell apart and out the first time I removed the steering shaft.




http://i508.photobucket.com/albums/s...IMAG0154-1.jpg

Exactly. I don't think my red car has play in it, but I can't tell because it's all together. But the yellow car had a lot of play right there. I figured I'd start looking now for a replacement just in case.

TonyG

Hey Tony, I saw your shell over at Ajax's a week or so ago. Had no idea it was yours. Woulda left a six pack or something in it for you for all the help you've been...

Who is Ajax? Are you sure it was mine?

TonyG

Ajax Sandblasting in Van Nuys, around 7/11 or so. Sure looked like your pics.

Actually, Ajax didn't have any of those other cars that I see in the background of your pics, maybe there's another yellow race 944 in the works.

That's odd in light of the fact that my tub is actually at a sand blast shop... just a different shop.

These pics are from today.

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951....blaster.1.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951....blaster.2.jpg

Awesome project! Congrats on getting Landjet's car.

Ya, now that I think about it I think the tub I saw still had the rear fenders attached. I was in a hurry. Anyway, looking forward to seeing your build!

Looking forward to seeing this come together!

All I can say is that i hope that they are bead blasting, soda blasting or dry ice blasting. Sand blasting is difficult to control the removal of substrate. I restored two 1970 trans am's, one we used bead blasting, the other we baked off the exiting paint and sealers then dipped in e coat. I do have considerable experience in all three applications. In my business we regularly soda and dry ice blast.

good luck

You are clearly going to do the car Justice Tony. What color are you going to paint it? Mine should be getting paint in the next day or two. Regular 'Ole white for the interior. Should be done by the end of the week.

Great... I have no damn idea. I just was told to sand blast it. I'll have to call in the am to verify. What's the problem with simple sand blasting? Is it that there are pieces of sand that you can't get out?

This tub is very bare. and with the fact that it's a semi-tube frame, and the fact that all the floor pan is cut out and flattened... there's really not much of a place for sand to hide.

Always something....

TonyG

Thanks.

The car is getting sand blasted. It will be out on Wednesday. Then Thursday we are going to modify the side Nascar style door portion of the cage (it's too big to get out with a Hans...). And I'm going to install a couple of chromo bars behind the driver left to right to keep the gas tank from being planted into my back if I park the car at 100mph into a wall.....

Then Friday it's going to get completely powder coated (everything top to bottom to interior except the exterior roof skin). Gun metal metallic grey!

The powder coater has the matching paint to give the paint shop so they can match the interior portion of the fiber glass doors.

Plus... they even have matching paint in a spray can so I can do touch ups as necessary :-)


So the car will be metallic gun metal grey on the interior, the engine compartment, the bottom of the chassis and the rear tube frame portion of the chassis.

The exterior will be a red.. darker than Guards red. More of a blood red with white graphics.

TonyG

Subscribed!

Tony, you can call me at my office if you want to discuss. You can find the number on my website www.iscservices.net. At my current company, ISC Services disaster restoration, we pioneered the use of soda blasting for mold remediation. Before starting this company I also have a background in OEM automotive sealers, paints and the related prep.

Sand blasting can quickly destroy the substrate and is best left to heavy cast metals. Baking soda and dry ice are sharp crystals that allow the media blaster to remove the paint or other specific surface object without deformation or sacrifice of the substrate.

Baking is actually the best way to remove everything but it is best to dip in an phosphate rinse and then e coat afterward. In the "motor city" we have those resources available, you may as well.

Very cool, Tony. Can't wait to see it in action. I assume that it won't be ready in time for Laguna Seca next month, though.

I know the Joe A that you mention in the first post, he actually bought another race car from vision, the Gulf-colored 968-bodied one and will hopefully be back in action soon.

Hey Tony – see what you can find out about the car in Lart’s picture. I bought it and I am going to make a bunch of changes this winter. The chassis is pretty much stock….for now!

I will... I will be seeing Dewain next week.

Text me some pics so I can show him.

TonyG

After first round of blasting. A little more to go...

TonyG


http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...725_131959.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...725_132011.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...725_131946.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...725_132833.jpg

Sweet. Keep the pics coming. All that grey looks familiar.

Tony,

Great to see Craig's "El Camino" getting a referb!

West

More updates....

8/07/12

The front end was modified. And the new Vision/Kokeln rear torsion carrier with the raised roll centers and the far more adjustable alignment setup is here! (not to mention it's much lighter...).

TonyG


http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/8.7.12/1.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/8.7.12/2.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/8.7.12/3.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/8.7.12/4.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/8.7.12/5.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/8.7.12/6.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/8.7.12/7.jpg

I'm impressed.. he used my spring plate version! lol.. Cool. --- Which started out as a version of his of course. :) interesting rounded end threaded tube design he has though. EDIT: - the type hes been using for the 911s!

Tony, make sure that the Spring plate offset pushes the Spring Plate to it furthest outer most position when you install it. Reverse of whats in the picture. For example.. The spring plate sets further out to one side, make sure that side is on the outer most position. (better described in pic) - UNLESS, you asked for an offset to bring the wheels closer together. (not as wide) Also, if you still have the rear brake line keepers that mount to the body where would best be described as under the rear seats facing down, Just leave them out.. Don't use them. Push them up and out of the way. The keepers on the arm will do just fine by themselves. The bar pushes everything too high to use them and makes the brake lines stress at an awkward angle. I doubt this chassis still has them honestly. Another quirk is to use spacers for the Sway bar mounts. About 1/4" for each bolt. Unless you have the special Kokeln sway bar, then it will bolt right up. Also, you might have to "dimple" in the bottom side of the seat bulges on the far sides. The end plates fight against them and wont let the roll center get quite high enough. when you push it up there, it will be evident. A small sledge hammer and something like a steel rod or bar or something sitting on the car to hammer on instead of the car itself does well here.

Attachment 1207613

The whole assembly is loosely assembled. I'm not sure which orientation is correct. I just got it. I figure it will make sense when I install it.

Anyway... what's good is that the part makes sense in terms of why it's needed and how the fabrication and design are executed. And that the build quality is first class (which is no surprise since it comes from Vision Motorsports).

I think everyone that designs & fabricates these types of things sorta comes to the same conclusions about what needs to be built and why. It's just a shame that more people aren't building what 944 racers need on a regular basis.

TonyG

That is a very nice piece! I would love to see someone incorporate Hamlin boxes into the inner mount so the entire alignment could be much easier. Really like the steel plate over the thick aluminum piece originally used.

Very nice

Yep. It will make itself clear as soon as you get it up there. Vision certainly rocks.

I changed the words, "my design" to "my Spring plate design" to be more concise. Then I did a search and saw that type of metal spring plate had been used on the 911's for a while. SO, LOL yeah. Many things on the bars I'm making just HAVE to me a certain way, or there are a few ways to go about it, but one way certainly stands out more than another. He has probably never seen my version of the spring plates, but did the obvious way with the steel like I did. Well said Tony.


I hear you. And if you're hinting around, I could certainly make more parts, but only if there is a need for parts that just don't exist. Right now my hands are full, but soon I will have time to move on. Call me if Dwayne can't get to something, and I will certainly make an effort to make it for you. :cheers:


Me Too! I looked at a search and I think this is how they make the 911 Spring plates and this is just a carry over. The piece I made for my car is below.

Attachment 1207608

Attachment 1207609

How's this beast coming along?

The car is at Vision Motorsports (delivered today) getting the 35 gallon fuel cell installed in the passenger seat area with a dry break and fire wall and cage mods done.

Also they are doing the install, ducting/venting of (on the tube frame part of the tub in the front) dual Fluidyne 12"x9"x3.5" oil coolers with the RH radiator in the front.

Lastly (maybe lastly... depending on how broke I am when they get done with me....) they are doing the rear carbon diffuser/tunnel install.

And I'm probably going to have them do the 997 front control arm/upright deal (since they made the rear suspension carrier last week).

Then it's going to get powder coated, then the drive train gets installed.

ETA is 2 weeks.

TonyG

Sweet! What will the chassis / cage be?

I don't understand?


TonyG

****>>> COLOR>>> what COLOR.. I totally missed that.

Pics or it didn't happen!

Pics or ban!

This

Ahhh

The entire tub (engine compartment, interior/cage, underside) will be powder coated a metallic gun metal grey.

I'm not sure about the body but I'm feeling Ferrari red with white graphics.

TonyG

Love the gun metal color. Sticking with your favorite color is an easy choice. Dare yourself to be different. I only went half way towards that route of course. Half black. my favorite... and the other half gray and white. Full race car needs a full race paint job.. GO crazy.

The reason for red is to keep the car looking "somewhat" like the car its replacing.

If it were up to me, I'd do something far more track appropriate.

TonyG

...begs the question...if it's not up to you, then who? :)

^^^This!?

um.... that would be a grandfathering in of the car thing...

TonyG

Should look great! From a practical finding-dropped-nuts-and-bolts-and-stuff perspective I've always preferred white floors on my race cars, but white certainly doesn't look nearly as cool. Looking forward to pics!

Ok, so i have to ask, why on earth would you ever want 35 gallon cell?

Easy ballast (in the form of fuel)???
Do you have to weigh in immediately after a race - or...... maybe just beofore??? Do I forsee a quick drain setup :icon107:

Thats heavier than your average passenger at 6lbs* 35 gallons= 210lbs....and thats not including the weight of the cell.

The same reason that I'm also keeping the 15 gallon fuel cell that's in the back of the car. The reason that I might also be taking the existing 15 gallon fuel cell our and putting in a 25 gallon Endurance Racing (for a total of 60 gallon fuel capacity).

Lots of clubs have races that run well in excess of an hour. NASA runs a 100 mile enduro, the POC runs a 4 hour enduro race. These are big races.

It's much much faster to carry more fuel at a slightly slower pace than it is to pit for fuel multiple times. Avoiding pit stops is a major factor in winning endurance races.

Besides... when I'm not running an endurance race... I just won't carry a lot of fuel.

As far as additional ballast goes... yes..... it's also ballast, but that's not the primary reason.

If you're in the top 3 in your class, you go straight to the scales after impound.

TonyG

The 35 gallon fuel cell install..... the start of the fuel cell encapsulation....

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...ll.install.jpg

Oh wow. :eek:

Thassa big boy!

Side note; That shop looks very nice.

Here's the most recent up date from today...

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...uel.cell.2.jpg
.
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...uel.cell.1.jpg

Correct.

But it's irrelevant as it will only be run full at an enduro race where the additional weight of the fuel is a small price to pay for the ability to not have to make a fuel stop (or two).

In all other races, typical 15-20 lap races, the fuel cell will only get maybe 10-12 gallons put in. So yes there is additional weight due to the fuel cell itself, but that doesn't really matter much it can just be considered ballast since I'll have to add weight the car anyway.

TonyG

Now that's big!

I agree...Id rather race with an extra 250lbs, than have to stop for 3- 5 mins to refuel...

The additional weight of the fuel will allow me to do 1 pit stop instead of 5... eliminating 4 pit stops. And each pit stop takes at least 3-4 minutes due to the long (almost a mile long) hot pit lane... which must be gone down no faster than 30mph.

Also... any fuel spill or mph in excess of 30mph in the hot pit requires a 2 minute penalty (from the time you reach the black flag station on the hot pit lane). Thus eliminating 4 fuel stops reduces the chances of a penalty (either in exceeding the 30mph speed limit or spilling any fuel).

All of the above is for the Tribute to Lemans 4 hour enduo race.

Even at smaller races where the normal club enduro race is 100 miles... I would still save at least 1 fuel stop if not 2 depending on the track.


Combined this with the fact that the car is under weight to begin wiith and you can see why these cars are done this way.


... As they say... the races are won in the pits. And nobody wins these races without carrying a lot of fuel for this exact reason.


TonyG

Fuel cell firewall enclosure done. Also trial fit new dual master cylinder mount.

The dry break in the passenger quarter window and the fabricated hard plumbing will be done tomorrow.

NEXT!!!! Ohhhhhhh just you want...... The setup of all setups.... stay tuned....

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.6.12/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.6.12/2.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.6.12/3.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.6.12/4.jpg

Hey Tony that wall looks awfully close to your shifter. From the pics it doesn't look like there will be room to engage 5th or reverse.

I know it does from the pics. But the wall next to the driver is actually angled towards the passenger door slightly.

I really wanted as much weight as possible as centered and as far back as possible.

There might be enough room now. If not, we'll build a slightly offset shifter handle.

TonyG

You're right. It is a joke.

I'll pass on your arm-chair engineering excellence to the people that built it... you know... the same people up until a few years ago, built ALL of the fuel cells for the cup cars for Fuel Safe.

Oh... and the same people that also built the fastest 944 ever built (by far).

And I almost forgot..... the same people that used that exact same design on the cup car last year that won the biggest Porsche club enduro race ..... you know... the one with the pro drivers.

Yeah.... you're right. They are a joke.


TonyG

1. NASA has already approved this design. It's already been raced in NASA in either the GT or ST classes.

2. Any fuel limit constraints are what they are. Some clubs / race classes may have them. Some may not. So what? The car needs to add weight anyway. The fuel cell isn't considered ballast, thus it doesn't contribute to the maximum allowable ballast rule. This is a 35 gallon fuel cell that's easily removable if not needed since there are two different fuel cells on the car.

3. As far as safety goes... I think the that the people that actually made all of the fuel cells for Fuel Safe for all of the Porsche Cup Cars... which is who made this firewall enclosure for the Fuel Safe fuel cell.... are far more qualified to determine what is safe than anybody else. The fact that it was built by those same people... pretty much gives it all of the certification it needs in any club. Not to mention that everybody that's anybody knows the person that owns the company that built this. So it's a trivial issue.

4. Yes the car is built for a specific class in POC (which has a corresponding class in NASA) which the fastest class available just below the open/unlimited class. And it's now optioned with the ability to carry a lot more fuel (if needed) to compete with the big boys in the endurance races (which happens to have a **** load of great contingency stuff/money).

5. What you are seeing is not the fuel cell. It's the firewall that encapsulates the fuel cell (not shown). The actual fuel cell can be pulled out in a few minutes of not needed.

And the actual fuel cell... has a bladder as well as the standard enclosure. Both of which get located in the firewall shown in the pics....

The other fuel cell (the standard smaller fuel cell.. currently 17 gallons) is located directly above the transaxle behind the drivers firewall. And as an additional FYI... about 4"-5" of the torque tube and transaxle bell housing have been cut down to allow the fuel cell to sit that much lower, as well as the actual fuel cell housing having a 2" recess cut and welded in... thus allowing the "small" fuel cell to sit about 6"-7" closer to the ground than could be accomplished otherwise.

6. Here's a pic of their GT1 (the unlimited class) Boxter. It's got a factory 500HP 4.0L RSR motor, and full 997 GT3 front and rear suspension. This will be the car to beat. Note the location of the fuel cell.

The car is far more complete now. I'll dig up a more current photo.

Notice the resemblance to my 951 (as well as to ORCA)?

TonyG



http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...1.boxter/1.jpg

TVR Sagaris V8 series cars had the tanks in the passenger seat area. FIA GT rules allowed it in UK and Dubai as long as it was firewalled. I was going to run my cell there for better weight distribution but never got around to strengthening the side impact bars. Don't see a problem with it as long as it's well protected.

https://media10.dropshots.com/photos...907/160714.jpg

Tony, this is a perfect example of why I should have just bought another tub and built it. There just isn't much Porsche tub left when You're done. Love the Jongbloed wheels.

I love that pic. That is going to be one serious machine.

I know several race cars with the cells in the passenger seat area. It is a well protected area and good for weight distribution, especially if you are carrying a lot of fuel. I think it is safer than hanging a big cell off the back of the car, like you see done on cars with trunks.

More work in progress at Vision....

Fuel Cell Complete.

Building wheel wells and mocking up the new front suspension :-)

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...eel.well.2.jpg
..

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951.../996.GT3.1.jpg

Very cool pics Tony. Are you going with a full GT3 suspension in the back also?

No. I have the Vision (Kokeln) modified rear 944 suspension setup. Sticking with that.

TonyG

That, is a bad ass go cart. Looks great and it has me thinking.

I realize this is just a mock-up but unless the 996 upright has the control arm attachment much lower than the 944 the control arm mounting at the crossmember should be raised a fair bit. I also assume the massive bump steer to be corrected :)

I did know that, but I wasn't sure if you changed your mind. You're allowed :)
But interesting to do just the front. Very interesting.

Yes it will be. It might already be done by now actually.... but yes. The tie rods get lowered down so they are parallel with the control arm.

But you don't see yet is the tie rods lowered down, the custom sway bar with custom drop links, and the custom spacer between the cross member and the tub.

And yes... they totally agree that even if the 1/2" spacer wasn't needed for the V8 hood clearance, it's a good idea because it lowers the car's center of gravity. And yes... the transmission also gets lowered 1/2".

Stay tuned....

TonyG

Interested to see how you fix the bump Steer Tony. I need to address the same. In a very large way. 2.25" lower!

Here's today's update

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.13.12/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.13.12/2.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.13.12/3.jpg

Are these rivets in addition to welding or are the rivets the end result? In the pictures.

Which rivets / which picture?

TonyG

Wow, just some incredible work going on there Tony. My office is close to Vision. Definetly going to stop in there, say hi to Dwain and check out the progress in person.

Another pic from today.... rear end almost done.

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.13.12/4.jpg

If I can't buy ORCA, I'll just order my own dammit :-)

TonyG

While Orca is legendary, this will be better. Orca shows it's age. Especially in the Aero and cockpit depts. Subscribed!

Very cool. I dig the floor. Must be extremely light with cockpit/rear end design.

As usual there is several ways to skin a cat and in this case I can really not understand why you want to lower the trans. First off the drive shaft angles are screwed up already on a lowered 951 so to correct that the trans should be raised.
Secondly, aerodynamics and getting the total weight of the car lower to the ground should be a priority.
Lowering the trans will restrict how much you can lower the car in total. By raising the trans you can also make sure the exhaust does not protrude underneath the car. This means you can 1) lower the car more and get a greater mass further to the ground compared to a higher car with a lower trans.
2) Greatly increased effectivness of aerodynamics since you now can do a full flat floor very close to the ground.
3) You can also route the exhaust above the rear suspension with a raised trans
4) You can encapsulate the gearbox and do a flat flor and diffusor at the rear.

^This.

If possible, I would appreciate it if you could show some detail on how the fenders attach. I am also interested i how you approach the aero question. After Nasa Nat's we are making plans for Miller and the coming season that include a wide body and a flat bottom.

Your car is going to be great.

Assuming you are looking at ST1 in NASA?

Anyone with any information on advanced aero for these cars please contact me. I am watching closely for any ideas.

Both the engine and transmission are lowered 1/2" to lower the center of gravity of the car, which in-turn lowers the car's roll center.

The drive shaft angles are fine. I've been racing the car with a lowered transmission for 4+ years without problems.

Any axle problems I've had had zero to do with the angle of the shaft.

We are talking 1/2" on the transmission and engine. Been doing this for years. The drive train of of car represent the biggest portion of the sprung weight of the car. And that's why we lower it. And the 1/2" won't affect the bottom of the car nor will it affect the route of the exhaust system or anything else.

The car is going to be flat bottomed. And as you can see, the pan already has been done. We have a diffuser which is going to be integrated into the rear body work and run up to the pan. The front will be flat bottomed as well with the dual oil coolers being ducted out through the front brakes and the radiator ducted out through the hood louvers.

TonyG

Sounds good. I just have a hard time seeing how you can lower the trans, fit a 3+" exhaust and still have a flat bottom without cutting the floor pan or make a side exhaust. But if you can do it that's great.

Not sure the engine, transaxle and transmission is the majority of the sprung weight though.

Motor (LS or 951) ~450lbs assembled, Trans ~140lbs, stock torque tube 60lbs...~650lbs in a car that weighs ~2100...

Would there be any sense in chopping the roof off and replacing the whole thing with FG, relying on the cage for roll-protection? That's a fair bit of weight as high as it gets...

Btw, those rear wheel covers look pretty BA.

2100lbs total weight.
Wheels/suspension/brakes/1/2 of shocks/etc... = 450lbs approx.
.....

1650 total sprung weight
650lbs drive train

650/1650= 39.3%

The drive train = about 39% of the sprung weight.

So... I'm lowering 39% of the car's sprung weight by 1/2". That has a substantial affect on the car's center of gravity.

As far as roof goes.... There is no roof. It's just a skin that probably weights less than 5lbs.


TonyG

What will the ride height be?

I don't have a specific height.

TonyG

More updates... for today

The wheel tubs are done.
The fuel cell fire wall is done.
The new door fastener/clip is done.

Monday:

Finish the dual Fluidyne oil cooler mounting/ducting

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.14.12/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.14.12/3.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.14.12/4.jpg

Next is the install of these two babies with the associated ducting to the brakes....

mu ha ha

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951...il.coolers.jpg

Are you going to mount them either side at the front of the Orca-like bumper panel? Nice work on the wheel tubbing.

They go on each side of the RH radiator.

Then the exit ducting is funneled to the front rotors and exits through the wheels.

TonyG

Tony gongratz on you're buildt I absolutely love it:bowdown: , what is you're main reasons to convert the front suspension to 996 type?

keep posting pics!!!!!

Thanks for the compliments!

As far as the 996 GT3 front suspension goes... there's a million reasons...

Ability to adjust track width and vehicle wheel base are two important reasons.

The whole geometry of the front is totally different.

Corrected roll center.

The wheel bearings are much larger.

Less unsprung weight.

Factory fit 15" front brakes.

The list goes on... It's not cheap. But on a car like this it's worth it.

TonyG

Getting closer....

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.17.12/1.jpg

Nice work Tony!

What's the part number on those spindles? They're different to mine.

Cheers,
Mike

They're all Cup or custom. What parts do you have Mikey?

Which spindles? The 996 spindles? If so they are 2004 996 GT3 spindles.


TonyG

That pic still shows a bit of bump steer correction is needed. From that angle anyway. I see they welded in the old mounting hole and made a new one higher up. Looks pretty nice. I can't wait.

In trying to ‘cure’ bumpsteer I was under the impression that the arms and tie rod were meant to be working as parallel as possible? I realise that the inside fixing point of the arm should be raised on our cars if possible, as shown on Tony’s car.

Nice progress Tony.
How about control arm length compared to original 951 one? Would be quite simple to develop a kit for 951's using 996 parts, which are available for a good price.

Very cool Tony. I know Joe and am really happy to see the car going back together. Good luck the rest of the way. Can't wait to see the final product.

No front brakes. Bit of a ballsy move, but I like it. :)

So toe would be adjusted normally, camber by adding/removing shims, and caster by the rod going to the control arm?

WOW I love it!! What are you going to use for a front sway bar and how are you going to mount it?

Drop link is already hanging there.

Heh heh... was doing something similar, going a slightly different path now. Photos to follow ;)

Close... the caster is also controlled by the camber plate. Additionally, you can lengthen or shorten the wheel base by the drag link & shim combo and/or increase the track width by adding shims.

There is adjustment everywhere in every way.

TonyG

It's about the same width depending on the shims used.

TonyG

It looks like it from that angle. The other thing that's not quite apparent is that the control arm bends up at the upright. So you parallel line is to the upright attachment point at the upright, not at the general angle of the control arm (since it's not straight like the 951 arm is).

TonyG

I don't know. I think they are going to build up a custom version of the Kokeln sway bars they use to produce. I was told concerning the sway bar and drop links... "Don't worry about that. We'll build you a custom sway bar and drop links".

That's when I shut up and said OK.


TonyG

Hey.... thanks.

I don't know Joe. But I know of him and we have a few common friends.

I do know he recently purchased the last Vision 951 race car built (the Gulf car). Never seen it but I'm sure it's nice.

TonyG

9.18.2012

more progress...

TonyG


http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.18.12/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.18.12/2.jpg

So what are you going to enter this car as? What do you write down on the entry sheets?

It is my understanding based on my conversations with Dwayne that one of the key reasons for the installation of the 996 front end is because under heavy braking loads with slicks, the elevated grip will force the stock setup to flex/spread, causing brake cavitation. All of the other benefits are icing on the cake, bearings, geometry, part availability etc. Pretty tasty icing.

The installation of this front end, therefore provides a great value to those of us racing these cars at a high horsepower/grip level (with a healthy budget).

It's the setup you go to if you are serious about winning races. Otherwise there's no point. Stay with the stock setup.

TonyG

It goes into the ST class in NASA and the GT class in POC. Both are power-to-weight ratio based classes. What the car has on it or the modifications it has or does not have are irrelevant.

TonyG

Thanks for documenting the progress Tony. It's very helpful for the rest of us.

Run a blade type bar. LOTS of adjustment and the bar itself can be cut to fit your set up. You can also have it adjustable in car if the rules allow.

Out of respect for Tony I won't talk about my new setup here. But here are some photos of the spindle I was going to use: 997 341 658 05

Attachment 665263
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Attachment 665264
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Attachment 665265
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Attachment 665266

Beautiful casting, much nicer than the 996 stuff :-)

The GT3 rear is coming along.... mu ha ha


TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.25.12/1.jpg

Much jealousy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think you should install a second engine back there. :)

Looks to be room for a mid mounted flat six with twin huffers and full inboard suspension!!

Just enough room for the transaxle.....


TonyG

Looks great.

What does a GT3 rear end assembly typically cost in the US?

It interesting that the front cradle mount is pretty close to the 944 shock mount….:)

And I see some rear cross member mods in your future…

Keep the pictures comming!

Hat off to Tony G

your 944 LS1 was my inspire to my 968 LS1 track day project when i see it

3 years ago . ( the 968 is finish and ready for some track auction)

and you have move another level to this !!!


all i can say is awsome and badass


keep the good working coming

J

Nice Car Diyman25. I went to look for you older posts. Great project. I bet that car is very rare indeed.

Some misc pics from yesterday (before the site was hacked ....) ....

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.26.12/1.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/9.26.12/2.jpg
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Those wheel tubs are very nice. No rides for anyone in that car. :(

Looks good Tony. Thanks for posting the pics.

Tony,
Your project is Looking Great.
Can't wait to see the final product.
Nothing like a well executed plan.
Max

This def. my favorite thread right now.
I can't wait to see the final product

Today's pics...

Almost ready to go get powder coated!

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/10.10.12/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/10.10.12/2.jpg

will to subscribe to this for sure.

What tire and wheel sizes are you running?

330 19" slicks on all 4 (the rear tires are a taller aspect ratio than the fronts)

TonyG

BTW... the red car in my pic will be for sale complete in it's totality minus the engine, headers, computer and engine wiring harness, transponder and seat.

Everything else is exactly as it is including cool suit, GPS lap timing, Chase cam dual cam pic in pic system, new 6 point Schroth harness, etc...

Street legal and currently registered. Spare splitters, S2 trans with 50/80 Guard Diff, 315's on all 4 corners, 996 GT3 brakes, Boxer ABS, Huge Radiator and oil coolers and diff cooler, 2725lbs wet, complete new front suspension including new custom valved and rebuilt Bilsteins, new porsche 968 control arms, new porsche spindles, new racers edge billet hubs, new racers edge rear control arm joints, etc.....

This car will kill 98-99% of anything on the track without being a trailer queen!

You only need the engine, RH headers, engine wiring harness. The motor mounts, dual 2.5" exhaust, the GM computer are included.

And.. you need a seat and your own transponder. Brand new Schroth 6 point harnesses are included.



TonyG

umm hmmm.. what transmission will be in the new car?

Something like 680 rear 650 front? Damn, with new 330 slicks in the correct compound you must be able to pull 1.8-2.0 G's in cornering.
To find some kind of economy most people around here use used Porsche Cup car slicks.

How much for the whole car, and/or would you part it out a bit ;)

$15k

And yes.... I very well might part it out.

TonyG

boy this is another one of those "kitchen sink" projects. Nice

A couple more small updates.....

The Nascar door bars were modified and cleaned up.

The rear 996 shock mounts are almost done.

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/10.17.12/1.jpg
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Drool.......................

Curious on the angle of the rear shock mounts. 996/997 mounts aren't quick perfectly vertical, but they are no where near the angle these are. Curious how that will affect shock performance. I assume you will have to use a slightly stiffer spring versus a setup that is more vertical? I assume they will modify the drop link mount so there isn't a severe angle where the link attaches to the shock?

Believe it or not, the shock angle is a lot closer than it looks from the pictures. As far as spring rates go... We have to revalve and respring anyway since the back of the 944 (this 944) is so much lighter than the back of a 996. So it's a non-issue.

I don't know what they are doing for the drop links or drop link mounts due to the fact that they are building custom sway bars for the car (both front and rear).


TonyG

Here's the rear shock mount finished. One of the 3 mounts was cut down and finished. Other two tomorrow.

Note the removable X brace in the roll cage :-)

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/10.25.12/2.jpg

damn that nice

GOing to drive an extra set of wheels to the track?!

Funny....

It's so we can take out the secondary fuel cell from the top w/o having to take out the transmission and torque tube to take it out through the bottom.

TonyG

ROFL..Oh.. ok. :)

Thats a slickway to build a removable cross brace, very nice.

The other shock tower is done... shown from a different angle.

Damn I can't wait to race this thing...

Nothing like bad ass fabricators.

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/10.26.12/1.jpg

Incredible ! :bowdown:

Hey Tony,

Mike at IFC racing built me a very nicely done Firberglass roof skin, a roof scoop, F-40 style louvered fenders with a 3" gap at the back for air management, boxed rockers and is working on a fiberglass panel that will fit the stock taillights across the back of the car. He does awesome work and is very innovative. I was thinking you might need a F/G roof for your project. I can e mail you pictures of some of the stuff if you want. Let me know.

Lanny

Coulda used this about a year ago. :( But I'm happy enough with my aluminum one.

Is that shock tower all one piece or is it a disc welded to a cylinder then ground smooth? Looks AWESOME

The welds look great, too...I think I need another trip to the great beyond of N.LA to see when its done :thumbsup:

Tony, this car is going to be amazing. You should enter the GRM Ultimate Track Car Challenge at VIR next year. Would be cool to see a 944-ish car finish up high or maybe even win. I think I'll be there, not sure if I'm running in it or not.

Woo hooo..... the 996 rear suspension mounts and rear frame rails are done.

Remounting the fuel rear fuel cell and the transaxle today!

Damn these guys can fabricate...

TonyG

for your viewing pleasure....

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/10.31.12/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/10.31.12/2.jpg

just wow

As much as I love spending money, I would hate to see the bill on this build. But then Igain, I kinda want to.

incredible.

Looks great -- you've got a great shop you're working with, that's for sure!


Did I read you correctly that your old 951 is going for only $15k? If I may be so bold, what is "wrong" with it, or is it missing anything? Sounds like you've had a ton of work done to it and that it's quite the car.


Also, you're putting in two fuel cells? Holy cow -- I thought there were limitations on the number of gallons you could put into your car for a race, regardless of the size of your tank(s)? That's got to be like 50gal you'll have at your disposal, right?

Fantastic build Tony. That's top shelf workmanship. Good luck with the divorce settlement...lol...

52 gallons to be exact. the amount you can carry varies by the club/class . And. ...i don't need to even run the rear fuel cell unless needed. but is all setup and plug n play if i do.

as far as the red car.. ... the $15k is without the engine and headers.

How many miles/hours can you drive on 52 gallons, do you think? Plus, having a 30gal tank as a passenger will help some of the car balance with you in it :p

about 3.5 mpg depending on the track

TonyG

OMG. LOL.. and worse if running E-85. I was getting about 4-4.5 mpg with the turbo version of my car. low boost @360whp. So it all sounds about right.

Top notch craftsmanship!

Hey...you can re-wrap it with a different bow, but that's my gift! :D

Don't know how I missed this thread but its very impressive.

I have a few questions though about what tires you plan on running for them to last 4 hours?

Secondly, I like the cage modification for easier access and it likely makes the cage stronger (given the force of a hard side impact would be pushed into the top and bottom rail. So in a way the top rail triangulates the top bar into the main cage so that is good! Overall a very impressive car what class do you plan on running it in?

Bahaha I just ran your post through the thesaurus!

Incredible.

Awesome, sounds great.

And I knew it was missing something! Eh, who needs a motor/trans when you can do it Flinstone Style.

it comes with an AOR trans btw. and everything to install the LS V8 except the headers and the clutch / bell hosting

the car he's everything imaginable that you could do and still keep it street legal.


TonyG

And the official 11.01.2012 Vision Motorsports Update:

*** IT's Now A Roller ***

Mu ha ha....

Going to get disassembled again.. re blasted, powder coated, the drive train and suspension put back in, then back to Vision for the front end heat exchanger work....



TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.1.12/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.1.12/2.jpg

that's hawt.

Amazing how short the wheelbase looks in the last photo. You've certainly ticked a lot of the option boxes Tony!

those tires probably weigh more than the whole rear frame :eek:

this thing is awesome..

Today's Update....

Got rid of the factory caster block mounts. Chop chop chop.... Gone!

They are simply too low.

TonyG


http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.8.12/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.8.12/2.jpg

All I have to say is ......holy crap batman.

You have the right guys on the case. This car will be special.

Be interesting to see how quickly the roll centres are all sorted.

Gorgeous build, and top quality fabricating work. I'm enjoying this thread.

It's already been pretty much done.

They have some software that they use to layout the suspension points on the car, using the GT3 suspension, long before it's installed.

Then feed the data into this laser frame rack macihne. That told them where to put everything to the 1/1000th of an inch.

However... as you can see (and from what you can't see) every aspect of the suspension and the mounting of the suspension is adjustable.

There is not much guessing or estimating going on at this shop.

TonyG

Great project Tony. And it looks even better in person!

Cheers,

Thanks Duane. I can't wait to finish it. This is why I haven't been at the last couple of races BTW.

TonyG

So when will we see this thing on the track?

Testing is scheduled for Jan 2013.

First race is scheduled for Feb 2013.

TonyG

You should reschedule. Too soon by about 2 months for any kind of racing. Pros of they can..but no way.

I can't reschedule. That's when my first race of the season is. And... hell or high water... this car will be there.

TonyG

Today's Update

New bracing in the engine compartment.

Hang Tilton 620 pedal set.

Almost ready for powder coating....

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.9.12/1.jpg

Cool shot of the chassis/cage/frame. Have you driven cars with and without bracing that is tied into the shock towers? Can you tell much difference in stiffness?

I think that for PCA stock classes you cannot tie in the shock towers but for your situation that is obviously irrelevant. I had thought of adding some bracing going forward from my dash bar to the front shock towers as you have.

Not specifically with just that mod in a before-and-after comparo... but a caged car, and especially one that has all the suspension points tied in, even more so with all the seams stitch welded, is far far stiffer than a non-caged car. That stiffness is very apparent when you set the car up. In a non-caged 951, you can actually feel the front and back of the car flexing & twisting. In order to deal with this flex, you have to run very stiff suspension. In a car that's stiff... you can run softer suspension setting and get the same feel, but with more grip and predictability.

TonyG

As usual there is a large loop hole in the ‘stock’ class rules.:cool:
You are allowed to do just about anything if you identify it as a safety feature. For instance – you are not allowed to remove door panels or window mechanisms, unless they interfere with the roll cage. So adding door bars that protrude into the doors also allows you to remove a bunch of useless weight. Tying in the shock tower can add some extra protection in front of the driver, so you may be able to use it as a ‘safety feature’….as long as you can sell it well! BTW – tying in ‘near’ the shock tower is still just about as good.

My car is no longer stock class eligible anyway - should've just done this when my cage was built. In any case, Tony's cage looks like it adds all the necessary stiffness up front. I've never seen the inside diagonal bars before but I haven't looked at a lot of cages either.

Today's Update

New (slightly used) shocks! Triple Adjustable .... mu ha ha

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.11.12/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.11.12/2.jpg

Good stuff! Welcome to the Öhlins club :thumbup:

1300s on the front!?

Cup Springs.

Exactly. That's hot I got them.

TonyG

That's what they had on them when I bought them.

However, my guess is that we'll be starting at 1100 on the front and play with the rear until we get it close (I'm guessing 600-650 on the rear).

We'll see....


TonyG

Who setup/valved your shocks?

It's my understanding that the Ohlins are very generic in their "as delivered" state with the resolution of the adjustments being very fine. That they need to be essentially revalved to match your application to get them setup properly.

How did you get yours setup?

TonyG

Mine was ordered new for my car from the main Öhlins service center in Sweden.

Did they valve them specifically for your car? If so, what was the valving they used? Mine are coming off a cup car so I'll have to have them valved.

I was told, by a very reputable source, than they typically are a more generically ordered shock. That the adjustments are very fine, thus the range is small (compared to say a JRZ that has a far wider range of adjustment). So if they aren't pretty close in their valving, you can't get them setup properly.

It's got me a little concerned honestly, about the time it will take to get them setup.

TonyG

I was not involved in this car at the time but I have some sort of spec sheet at home I will take a look at.
We have the same rear suspension so that should be pretty similar but I have a custom double a-arm front suspension so those numbers is probably not really comparable.

No worries

Didn't find any useful info on my setup. I've never heard about the Öhlins having a narrow adjustment curve though?

Tony, get them on a shock dyno before you instal them.

Yesterday's Update

Tilton 620 pedal assembly brackets fabricated and about to be connected to the cage and hung.

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.14.12/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.14.12/2.jpg

Do you know the front and rear motion ratios for your new suspension setup?

No but it's all standard 996 GT3 which is going to be close to 1:1 (within 10% only because of the slight shock angle).

TonyG

Today's update for your viewing pleasure...

Closing up unused holes in the firewall. Closing in cage penetrations. "cleaning up...."

Also... new aluminum triangulated rear strut brace, which also serves as an adjustable transmission mount.

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.14.12/3.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.14.12/5.jpg

Wow! :thumbup:

trans brace is BA

Today's Update

Firewall finished.

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.15.12/1.jpg

So did you buy the LS3 motor? I guess you can sell the other motor with your car now?

I like the rear trans brace. I'm not a fan of your front cross bars though. They look like they go to the center of the front bar. There's no real support from that point in my car. That's why I completely crossed them to the corners of the cage for full strength. I'm guessing you have extra support there down the center of your car locked to a strong plate on the cage because you won't ever have a passenger. Then that design works.

I hope to eat my words on the time frame. It looks like they are getting some serious fab work done pretty fast. Tons of finishing work to do though. Keep up all the pics, I'm loving it.

There is a bar that runs from front to rear at the top of the passenger side fuel cell, under the aluminum firewall. You just can't see it from the pic. There are several actually under the aluminum. The fuel cell has to come out through the windshield BTW.

Also... the new diagonal bar (from the strut to the center bar) and the existing bar from the cage to the strut tower, form a V. It's that V that supports the Tilton pedal assembly BTW.

The LS3 we bought was for a 911GT3 race car we're building. A destroked 8k rpm LS3 with titanium rods, cnc heads, and all the other goodies... 550RWHP. $11k from RPM Motors includes the brain, harness, computer, drive by wire throttle & throttle body, intake, injection, etc... complete minus headers.

I was going to put this engine in my car but have since decided (next year) to install a Porsche Panamera twin turbo V6 instead.

TonyG

Panamera v6?? :eek:

Maybe. It's Porsche and factory twin turbo. Stock 420Hp. It will be a walk in the park to get it up to 550Hp (at the crank).

Plus with a V6, almost the entire engine will be behind the front axle center line which will make a big difference for weight distribution.

And with a short engine... there will be plenty of room for heat exchangers and turbos.

TonyG

Sounds sexy. Cost for a used one?

Which panamera has a turbo v6?

2013 model year


TonyG

Today's Update

Car is a roller... a few small things to finish up on the suspension, but it's enough done to to to the powder coater.

So it's going to get taken back apart, blasted one more time, then powder coated.

Note on the ride height..... There is a LOT to be said about how the suspension was setup. And it will get discussed in detail in the future I'm sure. Never the less... the suspension has 5" of travel. 3" compression, 2" rebound. The car sitting on the ground... while not using the correct springs, is actually at the race ride height (again... with 3" compression and 2" rebound). It's amazing how low you can get a race car when you completely redesign the suspension.

Anyway... the entire rear assembly can be moved up or down, the shocks can be moved up or down, and the spring perches can be moved up and down. The front has a ton of adjustablility built in as well. Note: The cross member is not one that's going to be used. The one we're going to use will be heavily reinforced to support the control arm mounting location.

BTW... the roller wheels are 205 in the front and 245 in the rear... don't they look small?

So ends phase 1 at Vision Motorsports.

Stay tuned.....

TonyG


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I cant believe they let you have a fuel cell right next to you in the cabin!

Why?

The fuel cell is in a steel container, which is behind firewall. And it's extremely well protected (far better than a 944 tank).

The area where the fuel cell is located is no longer considered the passenger compartment since it's firewalled off.

Anyway... the rule is that it has to be behind a firewall. And it is. It's no different than a 911 or a 944 in that it's simply sheet metal that separates you from the fuel tank.


And... you'll start seeing a lot more tanks located like that in professional racing BTW.

TonyG

We are not allowed to have them in our cabins here. If you get t-boned on the passenger side and the cell splits you have fuel in cabin. Personally I think a fuel cell position further into the cabin gives it more protection, but those are the rules here. I have seen a few cars rear ended (a common accident) and break the cell and pretty much a guaranteed fire.

This build just keeps on giving!
Interested to see some pics of the suspension adj you describe Tony?

We aren't allowed to have them in the passenger compartment either. But once you firewall off a portion of the passenger compartment, that section is no longer considered part of the passenger compartment. And that's why it's allowed.

The fire wall for the fuel cell is no different than the firewall behind the drivers seat where the back seating area used to reside.

TonyG

Today's update....

Just got blasted again (bare metal starts to rust pretty fast and it's been w/o paint for a couple of months now)... and finally at the powder coating facility. It will be finished next week.

These are the final pics of the car before being powder coated.


TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.29.12/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.29.12/2.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/11.29.12/3.jpg

That is an amazing build. :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

What color powder coat, yellow? I always liked light colors for race car interiors, makes it easier to find dropped nuts & bolts, etc....

Absolutely! Last shop I was at we had one. Comp and rebound settings are not linear more often than not. Get them checked and then adjusted.

Vision has a shock dyno. But it won't do us any good because we don't know what the valving should be for the car since we don't know the spring rates needed nor do we know the weights at each corner.

So while we can put the Ohlins on the dyno... it won't tells us anything that we can use.

We have to run them like the are, changing spring rates until we get it close, using the compression and rebound adjustments to see which way we need to go once the spring rates are close.

That's when we'll revalve them and dyno them. We'll probably have to repeat the process a couple of times to get it where it needs to be.


TonyG

The tub will be a gun metal grey.

The exterior will probably be red like my existing car since everyone knows me as "that guy with red 944" in racing circles.

It will mess them all up when they think it's the same car.

:evilgrin:

TonyG

Well that certainly narrows things down

It does. That's because I'm the only guy racing a 944 in the POC in the fast classes against GT3's and cup cars.

TonyG

met a guy a few years ago who had a 944 painted metallic pink at the factory (apparently a 911 color option) so whenever he looks up footage of his race events, it's easy to find...

like this:

http://www.filmcars.co.uk/images/Lot_514/porker1.JPG

Tony, great looking build but I have to ask...how many LBS of roll cage tubing is in the car now? I'll bet the chassis wouldn't deflect .010" at any corner if it had an elephant standing on it:thumbup:

Update from yesterday.... this is the tub primered ready for powder coating.

TonyG



http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/12.5.12/1.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/12.5.12/2.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/12.5.12/3.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/12.5.12/4.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/12.5.12/5.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/12.5.12/6.jpg
http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/12.5.12/7.jpg

Very Nice, this is a wonderful project

Tony,
The project is comming along Beautifully
Max

UPDATE.... it's powder coated.. finally.

Now it's time to put it together. Today is day 1 of assembling the car.

I'm putting the engine & transmission, the main fuel cell, and hand tighten the front and rear suspension.

Then it's back on the trailer... back to Vision to finish the front suspension, the front tubular frame, the splitter, and the install and ducting of the dual oil coolers and the new radiator.

Then it's back to me to plumb and wire......

Note... the trans is my backup trans. The trans out of the red car (S2 box with Guard 50/80 LSD) is going to Lanny in Canada. My new trans (a S2 box with a Guard 40/60 LSD) and it's just not ready yet. So I will have to set the car with a standard AOR trans for the time being....

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/12.21.12/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/12.21.12/2.jpg

sure looks pretty!

Really would have thought that the stock 951 gearing was more suited to this car?

Good thoughts Patrick-- interesting to me as well.

Honestly would've thought you'd be running a 968 box, Tony? Either way, great to see progress on the car!

I've modified post# 261 Colin to include the 968 ratios and I still believe the 951 stock gearing seems the best of the bunch for a V8. That's all on the basis that you drive those things on their torque, not rpm of course. I might be starting with the wrong precept.

It all comes down to where you are (mph) in 3rd gear at 4000rpms.

You can't use 1st or 2nd in any of the transmissions as the half of the 1 & 2 gear set that are on the input shaft are too small and will break.

That leaves 3,4,5 (and 6th in the case of a 968 box).

And since I never want to be below 4000rpms, where in terms of mph at I in 3rd in each box? 55mph with the S2 and 968 box. 65mph with the 944T box (too high).

And just as an FYI, I'd have to drop 500rpms to 3500rpms to be at 55mph in the 944T box, which at that lower 3500 rpms, results in a loss of 50+TQ at the wheels. Not worth it. The car is clearly faster with the shorter gearing.

And while the 3rd gear rpms are OK on the 968 box, it requires another shift on the top end where the S2 box doesn't. And a unnecessary shift against a sequential box 911 will cost you 1/2 car length+ on each extra shift.

That's why, even with the V8's wide power band... it's faster with the S2 box on the track.

And... if the track is short enough... the S2 box with the 944T 5th gear is a very nice combo.

TonyG

Today's update... brake pedals installed, steering shaft installed, rear suspension installed, rear window fabrication started....

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/12.22.12/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/12.22.12/2.jpg

Fair enough and I get what you mean in terms of gear plotting, but I wonder if you will have to start all your calcs from scratch now? So you might be in a totally different rpm range with a faster lighter car at a certain corner or straight. In other words, to your point, you may not have to change gear as often with a much lighter car and longer gearing. Still, whatever you have, this things is going to be stupidly fast!

Nice to see it come together. How nice to build on a stripped, powder coated chassis.

this is virtually becoming a front LS1 engined 911 with 50/50 weight balance

I prefer the turbo trans in my car, and yes I have tried both. Of course, I'm at near peak torque at 2800 rpms and the curve remains flat till I hit readline at 6400.

Agreed, not to mention that every track may advocate different gearing than others. I know Tony likes to run at Auto Club Spwy near L.A., so perhaps that's where the bulk of the empirical experience lies.

I suppose that based on the tracks Tony likes to run at, the Turbo trans seems to be the best compromise. I can see the 6-sp's extra shift getting in the way.

Actually, what I get from all this, is since you can't use 1st or 2nd, you are actually using 3, 4, 5 as MUCH TALLER 2,3,4's. So in essence, you are really looking for taller gearing by using the next gear up as you would one gear down... kinda hurt my brain there to describe that.

With all the work going into this car (is it even a 944 any more? :) ) i don't see why you're limiting yourself to an S2 or Turbo trans. This would be a great time to put in a Corvette transaxle or get something newer from the Porsche world.

Just logged in Tony. I'll be around this week and will see if I can stop by to see the latest.

Hugh R

I agree, EMCO sequential with paddle shifters

Good god. WANT.

I would rather have this transmission for the same price.

http://www.albinsgear.com.au/images/ST6rgb.pdf

Nah.... If I were going to go non-Porsche (or Audi in this case...) I'd go Hewland all day long. Which BTW... is what the the trans-am 944's used BTW back in the day.

Today, Hewland has some serious gear boxes.

But I'm almost thinking a flipped Porsche PDK trans.... :-)

TonyG

Sorry... but it doesn't RPM match. No throttle blip. That's why the car jerks on down shift. Not a good thing on the track.

TonyG

Tony, I was looking into Hewlands, and flipped Porsche. It's clearly been done. Flipping it hurt it in the long run?

I was referring to flipping the R&P like we used to do with the 915 gear boxes. Not sure if you could do it with a PDK. Plus.. the Cayman has a PDK already, the problem there being the gear ratios. The next GT3 is supposedly coming with a PDK as well.

I had a Evo 10 with a PDK (they call it a SST dual clutch) that I took to the track a few times. The trans was great. A little on the boring side, but definitely faster than an H pattern box for sure.

For right now.... I'm just trying to get the car together and sorted to try to make the mid Feb 2013 first race with a 951 box. And the clock is ticking....

TonyG

Hey Tony, we may be at Auto Club SW for a Chumpcar race on 2/16 & 2/17, are you planning on being there the same weekend?

Tony, I just wanted to say "Thanks!" for taking the time to share your awesome build. The suspension modifications and fuel tank location are really nice. You are implementing many fantastic ideas and I am looking forward to hearing about how well your new race car performs. Had I not sold my 951 race car project (and bought my 911 race car), I probably would have ended up making many of the same modifications. Have fun with that thing!!

Best regards,
Jeff

12.30.12

Update...

The car is back at Vision for the final round of development.

Here is the old original fuel cell can, re-powder coated to match the new 35 gallon side fuel cell.

Vision modified the bottom to lower the fuel cell around the trans & torque tube bell housings (which are already cut down). This allowed us to keep the weight as low as possible.

The bladder is a flexible rubber bladder by ATL.

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/12.30.12/1.jpg

The main tracks I run at are (in order) Auto Club Speedway (Roval), Willow Springs Raceway (big 2.5 mile track), Button Willow Raceway (various configs, but a slower technical track), Pahrump in NV and Laguna Seca.

TonyG

I wish you could make this an E85 car and make the LS engine a 13:1 compression motor. That way you don't have to go too crazy on the size of the motor but get big efficiency out of less cubes. That would require a different kind of Fuel cell bladder though. As well as fuel lines and pumps.

It would be good for the uniqueness of the platform though.

I run 91 octane pump gas :-) $3.75 / gallon. And I'm not crazy on size. I'm only a 5.7l And I still made 460RWHP and 400RWTQ

No matter... it's 2013 porsche twin turbo V6 that I'm going to be putting in next year anyway.

TonyG

Is there a diagram of that TT v6? That will need e85.

The engine makes 420hp at the crank stock, through stock exhaust, intake, and turbos.

Another 100hp is easily accomplished on pump gas when that's your starting point.

And no... E85 is out of the question. No need, expensive, unavailable, and not fuel efficient for endurance racing.

Pump 91 octane crap gas all the way baby!


TonyG

Thats whats holding me back from E85, not so much the cost but I would need a 200lt tank for endurance racing!

Not only will you need more capacity, but potentially the size of the fuel lines and the delivery rate of the fuel pump could very well need to be larger as well.

I've heard you need another 35%+ greater fuel capacity and delivery rate. Plus any other parts that need to be converted due to fuel system compatibility.

You need more fuel capacity? Heck... I can barely do with 54 gallons of gasoline. E85 would make me do another fuel stop (at least).

TonyG

Yup true... and then there is draining the fuel out after the race if your car is sitting around... PITA.

Today's update...

Flipped intake, laying out heat exchangers.

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/1.3.13/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/1.3.13/2.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/1.3.13/3.jpg

Damn its coming out way to nice to race :)

Meh...piffle. The benefits of running E85 far outweigh the negs...but I can see if you're doing endurance racing then the extra fuel needed would be a matter for consideration. Depends on what time advantages you can gain by running extra boost vs 91 pump. I'd be guessing in the region of at the very least 5 psi which over the course of lapping might warrant it?

I said ethanol. Not methanol. :roflmao::cheers:

I'll drop it. Need? Can't argue that without knowing more. Expensive? Less expensive than 91 octane in San Diego. Unavailable? Maybe. I would assume you would buy it in large quantities.

Endurance racing I can see your point.

Hey Tony,

Can you shoot a picture of your brake master setup? I don't recall seeing that in the previous pages, though maybe I missed it. I see it mounted in the old fuse box location. I assume it is an entire pedal assembly system? Just curious to see how you are doing it!

Cowl induction - Coooool!

Bit confused about this flipped intake which I presume involves the cowl induction? Where does it go from here?

we like.....

http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/vemp_12...s/viewall.html

"Yes, the intake manifold shown in our lead photo is backwards. That's intentional, for reasons we'll go into in a moment....."

1.4.12

Today's update... courtesy of your local Vision Motorsports race shop.....

Cowl Induction. This is only a mockup and is not done.....

Credit to: disasterman for the idea

The main reason we did it is to not have to interfere with the radiator ducting.

TonyG


http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/1.4.13/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/1.4.13/2.jpg

See below

Tilton 620 pedal assembly with the master cylinders on top of the assembly instead of in the engine compartment.

TonyG

Pictures are gone?

There's most likely plenty of space to put an appropriately sized air filter behind the firewall....

I see the pics


TonyG

awesome pics and video [roller thread] Tony.

Yep, as pictured. So I assume you'd have to have a hood scoop or opening of some sort. Wouldn't a motor like this want ram air induction? Excuse my ignorance, just haven't any experience with a setup like this.

in theory, cowl hood or not, you have 2 pressure zones that work together to offer slightly supercharged, cool air;

1. wall of air smashes into the grill causing pressure to build at the back of the engine bay.

2. wall of cool air smashes into the windshield pushes downward onto the rear of the engine bay acting as a barrier to keep most of the hot air in the bay from getting to the filter, *provided the setup makes most of the flow to come from there, and only a small opening [pressure] from the bay.

The induction sound your gonna get in the cab is gonna sound amazing, I want a ride

Today's update at Vision....

Front end build.

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/1.7.13/1.jpg

I always thought the base of the windshield was a low pressure area - due to the velocity of the air traveling over the hood and then bending up to travel over the windshield.

But, looking at this chart, you can see how the line goes down between the 10 and 14 dots... which I think is positive pressure. Perhaps because the air flow velocity is low?

Attachment 1207004

Van, you are correct. The high velocity of wind going over the hood windshield junction creates a low pressure area. Wind ramming into a radiator only flows as fast as it can exit. See the GT1 Corvettes for their method of exit which also provides downforce.

my thinking is that the air that smashes into the windshield must force it's way into the stream of slower air above [more air into less space]. the result should be pressurized air at the base of the windshield.... and in the wind tunnel, you see extremely rapid decompression out the back... there's also what you guys are mentioning, but only some of the air in front of the grill can go into the engine bay. the rest of it mostly has to force it's way over the hood into space that's already occupied with slower moving air... so that's compressed air at the front of the hood..., and where can that compressed air go ?? .... as it reaches the windshield only a moment later, this already compressed air must force it's way into a second stream of even slower moving air above, which is also occupied [more pressure].... we think of the windshield as making some downforce. if this is so, then this should also indicate that some of that air could easily be routed to go into the engine [not the bay] instead of having to fight it's way into the airflow above... therefore, i believe the bottom of the windshield should be a zone of high pressure, which should further bolster the universal view that the rear of the bay is also a zone of high pressure..... maybe this is why cowl hoods don't win universal acceptance, as there's already slightly pressurized air at the rear of the hood. but with the 944 ??

found a vette.


.

Wauw Tony.. This looks really amazing!

Also really digging your suspension.. If i ever have the money to build a racecar.. Your topic will be my guideline.. :) But, i'll be doing most of it myself so i'll have to start working on welding skills!

The 'vette picture shows it well. The air pressure at the hood/windshield junction is positive due to the change in momentum of the air. (this is how wings work as well)

Cheers,
Mike

What is that stock that the splitter is being cut from?

Today's update....

The front splitter and heat exchanger fabrication coming along....

Some trial fitting going on...

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/1.8.13/1.jpg

Is that as far as it will be protruding? Are you restricted in how far it can come out like in some series?

I don't know. I was told it was plastic. I don't know what type of plastic it is. What ever it is... it's what Vision uses to make splitters.

I just write the checks these days....

TonyG

^^^SPAM...DO NOT OPEN^^^

You can hover over the link and see that the URL is pointing to some BS poker site.

TonyG

Thanks a lot Patrick.

Asshole. (Not Pat...)

someone ban Rkjobdft

TonyG

..

It's been removed Colin....and, I am an asshole by the way!!;)

ps..Tony, I'm still interested in the length of the splitter?

That s the front fascia and fenders sold at Broadfoot.

Yes it is. I have something similar but am going for a much larger splitter than that. Initially I was going for something similar to that in Tony's pic as we were limited in a particular class of racing but in changing the type of event we're entering we no longer have those restrictions. That's why I was wondering if Tony had something similar to keep the splitter relatively short.

maybe he doesn't want a huge splitter at 175 mph...

but with the rear wing and big tires, he'll still be fast the rest of the way.

.

Hey...

What I was told... and I don't know how true this is... is that with a flat splitter, there's no real advantage in extending it out further as what ever air is going to go above and below the splitter is about the same with the splitter at it's current length or 3" farther out, and that the lower the car, the more accurate that statement.

This car is low. REAL low. So low that I'm having to have some custom, very long folding ramps built to get the car in and out of the trailer.

Remember... this car will be running a 330mm wide front slick. And it will be running the 997RSR front canards as well (maybe two... and maybe some custom widened versions as well).

For now..... I'm just dealing with the sticker shock which seems to never end. I'm actually trying to go broke. Seriously.

Today's update:

No more 996 GT3 suspension. It's now 997GT3 suspension with center locks.

That won't affect the wheel price as new wheels cost the same center lock or conventional 5 bolt.

But now... I get to buy new brakes :-)

Does anybody have a line on 997GT3 brakes? :-)


TonyG

I feel your pain brother.

In the last 4 years:

2 - 1970 Trans Am rotisserie restoration

2 - 951's purchased and disassembled to support the race car

1 - Crazy, wrecked twice, 3 engine replaced V8 944

1 - Semi restoration 1978 930

1 - Turner built M3 race car - restored from Road Atlanta 100mph wall impact

General fleet maintenance for my support vehicles and street cars


Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

I didn't think there was much, if any difference between 996 and 997 Cup callipers? As for going broke...take a ticket and form an orderly queue!

The rear calipers and rotors are different.

The front has the same caliper but a larger rotor.

TonyG

There are differences between the early and late 996 GT3 front calipers.

Yes... MK1 and MK2

I was running the MK2 which were the 6 piston caliper... which are the same as the 997 GT3/Cup (caliper only).

Anyway... I'm test fitting some parts for the rear and I'm trying to use the 996 GT3 13" rear setup because the 997GT3/Cup is a 14" rear and it's just way too big for what I need in the rear.

I just ordered all new 997 GT3 Cup center lock uprights with hardware. So I'll either know tomorrow or Monday if the 996GT3 rotor/caliper will fit. If it does, then I'll end up with 15" front and 13" rear which is ideal.

TonyG

Pretty sure the 996 and 997 Cup Callipers can run either sized rotor. Not 100% on the rears though?
In any case, I can see why you're going broke. :crying:

I think you could have just bought a cup car for what your spending here... Lol

Make that 2 Cup Cars! :o

...but the fun (to each his own) is in the journey..:rolleyes: Can't wait to see completion on this project.

But cant buy fun lo ;)



Very true I see the add on ebay cup car roller is over 30k ?

A good used 996 cup car is over $75k. A good 997 cup car is well over $100k. And by good, I'm talking about one that still has considerable time left on the drive train.

Cup car axles are $6500/set, cup car engine rebuilds cost about $22k/30-35 hours assuming no major failure (which is about 1 season), transmission rebuild costs at around $15k (again.. per season) Then there's the $10/gallon race fuel.

So... once you have the car, you're still going to spend a good $30k+ per season (or more) on the drive train, assuming no major failures. Yeah... maybe you'll be one of the lucky ones that can go a little more... but if you have a major failure because you took your chances..... you're gonna pay a lot more. Either way... you're gonna pay the man.

And BTW... I see this go on and on and on with a good dozen of my friends that race these cars. The big dollar expenses never stop.

That said.... I could certainly buy a used cup car knowing that it's gonna take a big chunk of ongoing cash to keep it on the track. But why?

OR

I could build my 944. Spend about $80k. Clearly beat 996 cup cars and probably all 997 cup cars as well.

In fact... there's never been a 911 (other than a RSR) that's ever lapped WSIR as fast as ORCA... and the car I'm building will be a full notch above ORCA, built and setup by the very person that built ORCA.

Then there's the fact that my engine rebuild costs about $4k every other season. And... I run 91 octane pump fuel which represents another $4k per year savings over race fuel. And I'm using no custom fabricated parts. All the parts I'm using are factory Porsche parts so I can easily replace things if necessary.

That's why I'm doing what I'm doing. It's about winning a class championship against the best of the best, for about 1/3-1/2 the cost.

Then there's the sour look on their faces when they get beat by a 26 year old 944.... priceless. :-)

Plus... the car is just damn cool when I look at it in person.

TonyG

That is priceless. :biggulp:

I couldn't agree more. Can't wait to see the new car on Video. Get a new camera system though. May as well go the whole hog!

I am. The chasecam system went with the red car. While a good mixed dual cam system... it's no match for the current HD stuff.

But... it's last on the list. I still have a very long list of things to buy still. I'm trying not to think about it honestly (the long list).

TonyG

Spot on Tony! A friend of mine build a 968 turbo rs. When he drove faster than the 997 on the track here in Holland you should have seen their faces; like you said; PRICELESS!!

I feel your pain...but the joy will be all time!

Dutch, are you talking about the car belonging to Alexander Holzapfel? Not a 968, I know.
https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...o-awesome.html

Running away from some pretty serious cars. All with only a 2.5L motor. Very impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=bV0vDa7Eprw#!

Hi Patrick,

I was talking about Filip's, a truly perfect 968:

https://rennlist.com/forums/968-foru...s-replica.html

at one point he had it up for sale, and a bunch of us begged him not to do it.

not that we had any effect. but, he came to his senses. :rockon:

Yes, that's a great example! Did he ever take any video on the track? Man, there's been some fast transaxles out of Holland. I still love watching Richard Buiten's video. So raw and fast for a fairly basic racecar.

ps...sorry Tony. Hope you don't mind a little bit of OT in your thread. It's unavoidable but at least it's 951 related.

That is also a serious car! Haven't seen him on the track a lot lately, last year i think he only did one race. I went to his shop to get a rim repaired but as he wasn't there himself i didn't have a chance to take a serious look at his car..

I hope i can get some video's from Filip's car at February 3rd at the 4h Endurance that day!

Yes, get video please!

Today's update

More heat exchanger / front end work....


TonyG


http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/1.11.13/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/1.11.13/3.jpg

Tony, how do you rate the quality of the front fenders and fascia?

Dwayne doesn't have any rear clips does he?

Another from Today

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/1.11.13/4.jpg

The quality is pretty good. It appears that it will take very little work in terms of fitment and gaps.

The work will be on the nose. I'm taking out the fog light holes and need to get some head lights in the front. Plus there's the opening to feed the heat exchangers, etc...


What are you referring to re: rear clips ?
TonyG

Those oil coolers and ducting have produced wood...

Tony, you've probably thought of this but you might want to have some good screen on the back side of the oil coolers. They are going to get a lot of track junk thrown at them by those tires. Especially if you happen to have an off into the gravel.

Got it covered..... but you're right. If left unprotected like that it would be punctured in no time.

TonyG

I totally agree with you Tony. That car is amazing... I can totally appreciate what you are doing there. I can only hope that one day I can do the next notch higher. LOL

You know... CF Funding would look good plastered across the side of the car on the race that's recapped on Speed Vision (Tribute to LeMans).

Just saying.....

Maybe you should purchase some ad real estate.

TonyG

And we are about to be licensed in Cali also... LOL But unfortunately the owner of my company wouldn't go for it.

That's too bad. Wells Fargo is going to a partial sponsor and there are a lot of other similar banking/finance/lending companies that sponsor on major POC events.

That's the club to advertise with considering the type of people that attend and participate.

TonyG

Yeah, Wells Retail has deep pockets and a National Federal license. We're small and only do a few states. Just a mortgage broker. We deal with all the banks instead of just one.

Today's Update.....

Front end work!

TonyG


http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/1.16.13/1.jpg
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http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/1.16.13/14.jpg

Truly badass looking! Big fat oil coolers and nice welding!

But, are you not putting a short shifter on the gearbox?

How about some details on that fuel cell dude.

Tony,
The car is fabulous. What about that fuel cell we are all interested, would that fit our standard 944/951 tubs?
Max

Hey

I'm not sure about the short shifter yet.

The trans you see there is for mockup purposes. It's actually a stock AOR trans and is what will be built into the backup trans for the car once I get it out... once the new trans is ready.

But because of the main fuel cell fire wall location... close to the shifter, we will have to build a shift lever that is offset a couple inches. In doing that we will probably alter the shift linkage ratio there, rather than at the rear at the transmission.

TonyG

Hey...

First off... the top of the bell housing on the transmission and the bell housing at the end of the torque tube, both have been cut down. If you look you can see the top was cut down.

This was done to lower the height of the fuel cell.

Next, the bottom of the ATL fuel cell container was cut and modified to allow the fuel cell to be lowered further again.

Yes... I could get Vision to make more of the fuel cells... but you'd have to do a lot of work to get it in. The bell housings being cut down, the chassis steet metal cut out, and some brackets welded in to support it.

TonyG

work of art

That's a big project. I may go for the Broadfoot Big GTA body kit first.

Do you mean GTR kit Jim?

Awesome car Tony, nice welds too.

but...but... I just got a new supply of cut off discs and grinders. :)

GTR kit. Broadfoot has a terrible reputation but its the best package out there at that price. Crawford is crazy money.

The other Broadfoot stuff is available at Hairy Glass in Florida, Broadfoot never paid for the molds.

http://www.hairyglass.com/porsche.html

Hairy used to list prices and they were about the same as Broadfoot.

I called them and I was told they only sell those through Broadfoot.... which is where I bought mine.

TonyG

Oke clear. I'm anxious to see this project moving on.. Also a very neat bumper, too bad no-one provides a nice bumper for a N/A side fender!

Tony,

Will you be using the original 968 style rear bodywork?

Yeah. All the body work is the same except the front end (fenders, nose, hood).



TonyG

I can't recall -- was there a reason you chose not to build a custom tranny? I'm thinking a sequential would suit her verrrry nicely. Was it a rules thing?

It might be an additonal $25,000 type of thing.

I hate when that happens....

lol...having said that, I'm sure I've seen sequentials for other brands of cars for considerably less. Subaru WRX for around $10k i.i.r.c.?

Today's Update

The strut brace and associated reworked brackets.

TonyG

http://www.tonygarcia.org/vision.951/1.18.13/1.jpg

This car has one objective: Be faster than a new 997 Cup Car with a great driver behind the wheel, while costing 1/4 the operational cost.

And if I were to do a custom trans, it would be very expensive because it would be a PDK. And that would be at least a $25k add-on. And the reliability isn't proven under high HP applications in a racing environment, no known hours per rebuild, and no known rebuild costs (which we all know wouldn't be inexpensive).

And if it's not a PDK, then what's the point?

TonyG

Even a stick shifting sequential is a clear advantage over an old 951/968 box. Not that a paddle shifter wouldn't be better again. Fast, but somehow not quite as satisfying as a stick shifter in my opinion.

Hey did you get my email re the Canards?

I think just about any transmission made in this century would be a clear upgrade over the 951 box, but that's just me.

What about a transaxle with custom straight cut gears for $9,000?

I don't see what's wrong with the 951 trans. It's light, it's strong, it's reliable. And it's cheap.

I've been racing with over 450RWHP and 400RWTQ (slightly less several years ago) with 315 sticky tires for over 7 years and have only broken two transmissions. The first had the factory LSD case break, and the second was when I broke 2nd gear at Laguna Seca.

Now I run a Guard diff which will never break like the stock LSD (because it's 1 piece vs the stock which is 3 pieces) and I never use 1st or 2nd gears on the race track (which are very small and are a part of the input shaft).

The only down side to the transmission is the fact that it shifts slow compared to a sequential no-lift transmission. The stock gearing is pretty good all-around gearing, plus there are custom 3,4,5 gear ratios that are available for about $600 each.

TonyG