Interesting Dyno Day
#46
Nordschleife Master
Pat, you need to take your car to the strip when it's back together.
Jet951 should do the same. And me too.
Everyone should do it so we can compare trap speeds.
I've never been to the drag strip but I have high expectations for my race car.
Jet951 should do the same. And me too.
Everyone should do it so we can compare trap speeds.
I've never been to the drag strip but I have high expectations for my race car.
#47
Rennlist Member
I would actually like to do this Gustaf. My hesitation has been about breaking things. As it is I spend way too much time on the sidelines and don't like the idea of risking anything else breaking, but you never know. Maybe having a lighter car might lessen the load. I'd love to see what Sean's car would do but I'm betting he's a bit like me. He did a bit of damage once before but that was with a weaker r&p. So maybe one day...can't even get him to the dyno though!!! Love to see your car! I think they'd be a bit shocked if you rolled up to the strip in a full blown race car....that just happens to be road registered!!!
#48
Nordschleife Master
We can always do a soft start just to get off the line and then start accelerate. If the car cannot handle that it would brake on the first lap anyway
Hmm my car should be around 2530 lbs with fuel and driver. Wonder what the trap speed will be with 500+ rwhp?
Hmm my car should be around 2530 lbs with fuel and driver. Wonder what the trap speed will be with 500+ rwhp?
#49
Rennlist Member
It would have to be into the 140's wouldn't it?
#50
#51
Ok, so let me get this straight. You have a Stage 2 turbo, 80lb injs, stock i/c, 2.5" exhaust and that's kinda it. You run 355whp @ 19 or 20psi at 5000' on a hot day?
I have GT3076 .82, bigger cam, fmic rated to 600hp, bigger hard pipes, 3.5" dpipe into larger exhaust, Motec M400, full sequential cdi, 1000cc injs, 3x044s running race E85 at approx 500' and display this chart with a 24psi peak leveling down to 23psi. Oh and this is with a brand new wastegate.
I am not bashing anyone here, but I just don't get it. The guys tuning my car are not shade tree mechanics either. Here's my ign map also. May I deduce that if we brought your car to my dyno at a significantly lower altitude and ran 23psi that you'd be up near 450whp. What am I missing??
I have GT3076 .82, bigger cam, fmic rated to 600hp, bigger hard pipes, 3.5" dpipe into larger exhaust, Motec M400, full sequential cdi, 1000cc injs, 3x044s running race E85 at approx 500' and display this chart with a 24psi peak leveling down to 23psi. Oh and this is with a brand new wastegate.
I am not bashing anyone here, but I just don't get it. The guys tuning my car are not shade tree mechanics either. Here's my ign map also. May I deduce that if we brought your car to my dyno at a significantly lower altitude and ran 23psi that you'd be up near 450whp. What am I missing??
Again, this is why I like the uncorrected numbers. I can compare them to a dragstrip.
My first run of the night was on my low boost setting. I ran 103.76. The dyno was 287hp. Using the link that was posted (those numbers seem spot on for rwhp and my car..i need to get the formula they are using) it predicts a 103.7mph run.
If I take the 355hp (i was between 352 and 355 on three runs at high boost on the dyno, plug that into the link, it shows 111mph.
I was screwing around with settings but ran a 110.3 and a 110.06.
I also ran the car on a Dyno dynamics which will give very close results to the dyno dynamics that you ran on. If I was running on a dynojet, you can't compare results.
But if you question is am I really running a 2.5in exhaust, stock intercooler, etc, yes.
Engine mods consist of
82lb (i think) injectors
Vitesse S2R
Vitesse V-flex MAF software (with piggy back)
I have better head studs
2.5in exhaust without cat
Tial wastegate
stock downpipe
stock manifold
stock intercooler
stock intercooler pipes
I have lindsey silicone coolant hoses
new lindsey wiring harness
ice shark cables
Forge BOV
If you doubt this, ask the 951 guys here that have seen the car.
#53
333pg333
You seem to be questioning numbers.
Just as reference point, that link is about the most accurate I have ever seen for predicting mph.
Here is a time slip from my hayabusa (I was running next to a Yamaha R6 so you guys can see spped comparisons at altitude). 130.48mph
The dynojet dyno for the bike is 155.1hp SAE corrected. I hate corrected numbers because I cannot compare to real world...but, since they list the CF on the sheet, it is showing an SAE CF of 1.19 for that day (58 degrees out) that would make 130 uncorrected rwhp (but dynojet which are typically a little optimistic compared to an eddy current dyno).
But the bike and I were probably around 725lbs depending upon how much fuel etc (I can carry 40 some pounds of fuel..which changes weight by 5%). Anyways, 725lbs and 130rwhp on that indicates 132mph quarter mile. If I had an exact weight, it would be more accurate.
But all the numbers work out.
You seem to be questioning numbers.
Just as reference point, that link is about the most accurate I have ever seen for predicting mph.
Here is a time slip from my hayabusa (I was running next to a Yamaha R6 so you guys can see spped comparisons at altitude). 130.48mph
The dynojet dyno for the bike is 155.1hp SAE corrected. I hate corrected numbers because I cannot compare to real world...but, since they list the CF on the sheet, it is showing an SAE CF of 1.19 for that day (58 degrees out) that would make 130 uncorrected rwhp (but dynojet which are typically a little optimistic compared to an eddy current dyno).
But the bike and I were probably around 725lbs depending upon how much fuel etc (I can carry 40 some pounds of fuel..which changes weight by 5%). Anyways, 725lbs and 130rwhp on that indicates 132mph quarter mile. If I had an exact weight, it would be more accurate.
But all the numbers work out.
#54
I have two dyno points. 287 at 13.5lbs. 355 at 19 psi. Lets say about 11hp per pound of boost.
So 23 is 4 more than 19 so 4*11 = 44
355+44 = 399hp.
But remember, that I show 22psi on my gauge (I am 22psi above denver atmosphere). This is where the correction comes in. If I show 23 psi at your atmospheric conditions, I would be making close to 400hp but I am only making 19psi above 14.7.
Of course, this again has many variables. What do the pressure ratios look like? Will a 2.5in exhaust start choking power above 355? There are tuning differences between high and low altitude.
#55
Rennlist Member
No so much all about numbers for the sake of it, or bragging rights. More trying to get a handle on why there are so often such differences around the world.
Having the same dyno should go a reasonable way to achieving some sort of parity, but that’s why I also wondered in what mode and ramp rates your operator set the runs at?
As you could imagine, having the mods that I currently have should either yield the hp / tq that it does and others with less mods should show less, or my setup should yield more hp/tq.
Granted, mods alone don’t achieve the numbers by themselves. Of course the tune is integral but I’m sure that the tune on my car is sufficient. I’ve provided mods, chart, and ign table.
What would you expect under these conditions?
Disclaimer: I'm only comparing to my mods because I know them. Not trying to make it all about me. lol. Just asking questions.
Having the same dyno should go a reasonable way to achieving some sort of parity, but that’s why I also wondered in what mode and ramp rates your operator set the runs at?
As you could imagine, having the mods that I currently have should either yield the hp / tq that it does and others with less mods should show less, or my setup should yield more hp/tq.
Granted, mods alone don’t achieve the numbers by themselves. Of course the tune is integral but I’m sure that the tune on my car is sufficient. I’ve provided mods, chart, and ign table.
What would you expect under these conditions?
Disclaimer: I'm only comparing to my mods because I know them. Not trying to make it all about me. lol. Just asking questions.
333pg333
You seem to be questioning numbers.
Just as reference point, that link is about the most accurate I have ever seen for predicting mph.
Here is a time slip from my hayabusa (I was running next to a Yamaha R6 so you guys can see spped comparisons at altitude). 130.48mph
The dynojet dyno for the bike is 155.1hp SAE corrected. I hate corrected numbers because I cannot compare to real world...but, since they list the CF on the sheet, it is showing an SAE CF of 1.19 for that day (58 degrees out) that would make 130 uncorrected rwhp (but dynojet which are typically a little optimistic compared to an eddy current dyno).
But the bike and I were probably around 725lbs depending upon how much fuel etc (I can carry 40 some pounds of fuel..which changes weight by 5%). Anyways, 725lbs and 130rwhp on that indicates 132mph quarter mile. If I had an exact weight, it would be more accurate.
But all the numbers work out.
You seem to be questioning numbers.
Just as reference point, that link is about the most accurate I have ever seen for predicting mph.
Here is a time slip from my hayabusa (I was running next to a Yamaha R6 so you guys can see spped comparisons at altitude). 130.48mph
The dynojet dyno for the bike is 155.1hp SAE corrected. I hate corrected numbers because I cannot compare to real world...but, since they list the CF on the sheet, it is showing an SAE CF of 1.19 for that day (58 degrees out) that would make 130 uncorrected rwhp (but dynojet which are typically a little optimistic compared to an eddy current dyno).
But the bike and I were probably around 725lbs depending upon how much fuel etc (I can carry 40 some pounds of fuel..which changes weight by 5%). Anyways, 725lbs and 130rwhp on that indicates 132mph quarter mile. If I had an exact weight, it would be more accurate.
But all the numbers work out.
Last edited by 333pg333; 06-22-2012 at 05:09 AM.
#56
What is your question about mode?
#57
As you could imagine, having the mods that I currently have should either yield the hp / tq that it does and others with less mods should show less, or my setup should yield more hp/tq.
Granted, mods alone don’t achieve the numbers by themselves. Of course the tune is integral but I’m sure that the tune on my car is sufficient. I’ve provided mods, chart, and ign table.
What would you expect under these conditions?
Granted, mods alone don’t achieve the numbers by themselves. Of course the tune is integral but I’m sure that the tune on my car is sufficient. I’ve provided mods, chart, and ign table.
What would you expect under these conditions?
But I think one thing that is not well understood by many people is having the biggest and baddest parts are not always the best. There are times when combinations are the key.
As an example, a Chevy small. The 327 is just a magic combination that typically make really good power easier than other combinations. The chevy 305 just didn't work well.
I suspect with mine, I am leaving some power on the table with a 2.5in exhaust. As far as IC, there have been many debates if changing the stock IC to "stage 1" or "stage 2" is actually beneficial.
Also, there are some things (which I did not do) that affect dno numbers. I could have iced down the manifold (drag race trick). I have also seen a dyno place that uses a hose to cool intercoolers/radiators during runs.
If you want to put up big dyno numbers, use an air to water intercooler with salt water / ice mixture.
Dana
#58
Patrick, You have been fantastic on this forum. I don't think anyone thinks you meant anything more than you just trying to figure out what is going on. It was necessary to write your specs. All understood and well and good.
Unfortunately Patrick, this is what I have been PMing you about for so long. You are truly just not making the power you should. You are down about 40hp. at that psi. End of story.
I Highly suggest doing 3 things. The first one is very easy and may negate the second two.
1. GO to the 1/4mile track like everyone else is saying. That just might be a silly conservative dyno and misleading. You do NOT have to Launch / start crazy. Just give it a wimpy start. MPH is what we need to see and MPH is not affected too much by the starts - it is a little, but no matter what, we all will know right away what your RWHP is (close estimate) If you give us the Altitude of the track and the temp. And the weight of the car with you in it.
You should run between 119-122 mph. at 23psi in that set up. - Giving estimations on your weight and altitude. I ran 124mph with 410 rwph at 2500lbs weight with me in it. I believe you weigh 2700 with you in it right?
If you indeed run 113-115 mph. I suggest the next three things. Easiest to hardest
1. VERIFY your TURBO! You said your turbo was dropping psi at the top end?! A GT3076R would not do that. It has plenty more ceiling to go and would not run out of steam anywhere near that psi. on this set up. I know you think I might be crazy, but verify turbine diameters Inducer and exducer.. Same for the compressor. I work for a manufacturer. Believe me when I say they make mistakes and put wrong parts that are similar, or just get a little mixed up. It happens. And it is Important to check/verify ALL your basics first. It's the best standard I have ever done in problem solving. Be sure of the obvious, is what I like to say.
2ndly. If it is indeed the correct turbo, something else is holding you back. Check everything else. Restrictions, compression, leak downs, boost leaks, etc.
3. Go back to the stock cam. I don't think what you have is helping you out at all. I truly think it is hurting you, especially in a road race scenario. Maybe your set up with this cam actually is the power loss?! Too much overlap and boost is blowing out your exhaust?! Weirder things have happened.
Like I said, you have almost the exact same set up I did. The only difference is the Turbine housing. I had a .63 A/R. I had full 23psi of boost by 3300 rpms. Yours is much laggier, but I think it has to do with other things and not the .82. that might make you lag to 3600 full boost. Right now you're into the 4K rpm range, and that is just not where it should be. Something is certainly wrong there, and I would start with going back to the stock cam. Or just a cam with a little more lift. Don't change the duration.
Patrick, your set up can easily reach 450whp. You paid for it. You should have it. DanaT cannot hit any higher power levels without larger injectors. He truly needs to change them out now and retune if he plans on diving anywhere lower in Altitude. Just for the sake of keeping his motor together. - Dana... you hearing this? And it leaves room for more power in the future of course. Everyone wants that.
Also, the timing tables looked ok. a bit conservative, but good. Rogue? You know way more than I on that one. Suggestions?
Unfortunately Patrick, this is what I have been PMing you about for so long. You are truly just not making the power you should. You are down about 40hp. at that psi. End of story.
I Highly suggest doing 3 things. The first one is very easy and may negate the second two.
1. GO to the 1/4mile track like everyone else is saying. That just might be a silly conservative dyno and misleading. You do NOT have to Launch / start crazy. Just give it a wimpy start. MPH is what we need to see and MPH is not affected too much by the starts - it is a little, but no matter what, we all will know right away what your RWHP is (close estimate) If you give us the Altitude of the track and the temp. And the weight of the car with you in it.
You should run between 119-122 mph. at 23psi in that set up. - Giving estimations on your weight and altitude. I ran 124mph with 410 rwph at 2500lbs weight with me in it. I believe you weigh 2700 with you in it right?
If you indeed run 113-115 mph. I suggest the next three things. Easiest to hardest
1. VERIFY your TURBO! You said your turbo was dropping psi at the top end?! A GT3076R would not do that. It has plenty more ceiling to go and would not run out of steam anywhere near that psi. on this set up. I know you think I might be crazy, but verify turbine diameters Inducer and exducer.. Same for the compressor. I work for a manufacturer. Believe me when I say they make mistakes and put wrong parts that are similar, or just get a little mixed up. It happens. And it is Important to check/verify ALL your basics first. It's the best standard I have ever done in problem solving. Be sure of the obvious, is what I like to say.
2ndly. If it is indeed the correct turbo, something else is holding you back. Check everything else. Restrictions, compression, leak downs, boost leaks, etc.
3. Go back to the stock cam. I don't think what you have is helping you out at all. I truly think it is hurting you, especially in a road race scenario. Maybe your set up with this cam actually is the power loss?! Too much overlap and boost is blowing out your exhaust?! Weirder things have happened.
Like I said, you have almost the exact same set up I did. The only difference is the Turbine housing. I had a .63 A/R. I had full 23psi of boost by 3300 rpms. Yours is much laggier, but I think it has to do with other things and not the .82. that might make you lag to 3600 full boost. Right now you're into the 4K rpm range, and that is just not where it should be. Something is certainly wrong there, and I would start with going back to the stock cam. Or just a cam with a little more lift. Don't change the duration.
Patrick, your set up can easily reach 450whp. You paid for it. You should have it. DanaT cannot hit any higher power levels without larger injectors. He truly needs to change them out now and retune if he plans on diving anywhere lower in Altitude. Just for the sake of keeping his motor together. - Dana... you hearing this? And it leaves room for more power in the future of course. Everyone wants that.
Also, the timing tables looked ok. a bit conservative, but good. Rogue? You know way more than I on that one. Suggestions?
Last edited by 95ONE; 06-22-2012 at 10:51 PM.
#59
Still. DanaT. Well done as is. I will be green with envy on July 9th.
#60
Really at this point, to make much more power, takes a LOT of money and i have already put a bunch into having the whole thing rebuilt. But no matter how much money I put into the 951 its not a 911.
If I want to make more power (go faster) that what I have, I think a 996TT is a better start place....
Also, my car is heavy. 3130 lbs without me. I have a roll bar in it. The 5000 way power adjustable recaros are probably very heavy. I run with tool kit and spare tire in it. If I lost 200lbs I would pick up 3-4mph.
Weight loss may be the way to make it faster....