Race Video - 951 LS6 vs heavy hitters in the POC
06-05-2012, 12:18 PM
#16
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All you armchair quarterbacks that think Tony should be faster etc. haven't driven against those guys, in those cars.
I have, and thought Tony was doing fine especially considering the huge tire handicap. It's an old car. "Those guys" have new ones. They're better. A LOT better.
Tuning the chassis to work in the slow infield as well as on the banking (where it absolutely has to be right, or at least close) isn't that easy.
I have, and thought Tony was doing fine especially considering the huge tire handicap. It's an old car. "Those guys" have new ones. They're better. A LOT better.
Tuning the chassis to work in the slow infield as well as on the banking (where it absolutely has to be right, or at least close) isn't that easy.
Tony, I thought the car was much lighter than that. I thought 500lbs lighter! It makes sense now. Thank you for answering all my questions. Once again. Get that sorted out and show em up!
06-05-2012, 01:06 PM
#18
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
No problem... and it didn't come out bad. I get it.
I've heard all over the internet how R6's are supposed to be faster than NT01's. And based on that, I bought a set and ran them at the last event. Back to back... same track, same time of day (R6's on Sat then NT01's on Sun). No other changes to the car except a tire change.
The R6's are lighter and stiffer. They feel far more like a slick in terms of response and feel. That part is great. The NT01's are heavier, have a softer sidewall, and feel more like a street tire. However... the NT01's were about a full second faster than the R6's. Here's why... the break away characteristic and the slip angle. The R6's break away faster... and when they do you have to let off the gas. You can't dive them with any sort of real slip angle. The NT01's break away slower and they don't snap.... and they like to be driven with a considerably large slip angle, which means you don't let of the gas... you stay on it. It feels like the back of the car is in a 6" slide all the way round the corner.... and you're on the gas the whole way. That makes them faster... and that was reflected in the lap times.
In fact... I took the new R6's with 3 heat cycles and sold them at the track for $400.... that's how much better the NT01's were over the R6's.
So maybe it's me, my driving style, the car, or a combination of the three. No matter... I will never buy another set of R6s'. NT01's or go straight to slicks.
The car probably had 50lbs of gas in it at the scales. And it's not that light. It's got a full glass front end, glass bumper, lexan rear and quarters, gutted under the dash, no head light assemblies, no heat/a/c, no sunroof cables/motor, no hatch motor, tiny motorcycle battery, gutted doors, etc... There's no more easy weight to get rid of on the car. The wheels & tires are heavy, the big brakes are heavy, the cage is heavy.
And based on my weight... when I go to slicks... I'll probably have to add a hundred lbs or so.
The key is large rubber and a smaller wing. The wing really slows down my top speed. I'm going to cut down the wing uprights so I can reduce the AOA a few degrees more. That's why those 2012 Cup Cars were able to get me at the end of the long straight/bank. Aero baby...
TonyG
I've heard all over the internet how R6's are supposed to be faster than NT01's. And based on that, I bought a set and ran them at the last event. Back to back... same track, same time of day (R6's on Sat then NT01's on Sun). No other changes to the car except a tire change.
The R6's are lighter and stiffer. They feel far more like a slick in terms of response and feel. That part is great. The NT01's are heavier, have a softer sidewall, and feel more like a street tire. However... the NT01's were about a full second faster than the R6's. Here's why... the break away characteristic and the slip angle. The R6's break away faster... and when they do you have to let off the gas. You can't dive them with any sort of real slip angle. The NT01's break away slower and they don't snap.... and they like to be driven with a considerably large slip angle, which means you don't let of the gas... you stay on it. It feels like the back of the car is in a 6" slide all the way round the corner.... and you're on the gas the whole way. That makes them faster... and that was reflected in the lap times.
In fact... I took the new R6's with 3 heat cycles and sold them at the track for $400.... that's how much better the NT01's were over the R6's.
So maybe it's me, my driving style, the car, or a combination of the three. No matter... I will never buy another set of R6s'. NT01's or go straight to slicks.
The car probably had 50lbs of gas in it at the scales. And it's not that light. It's got a full glass front end, glass bumper, lexan rear and quarters, gutted under the dash, no head light assemblies, no heat/a/c, no sunroof cables/motor, no hatch motor, tiny motorcycle battery, gutted doors, etc... There's no more easy weight to get rid of on the car. The wheels & tires are heavy, the big brakes are heavy, the cage is heavy.
And based on my weight... when I go to slicks... I'll probably have to add a hundred lbs or so.
The key is large rubber and a smaller wing. The wing really slows down my top speed. I'm going to cut down the wing uprights so I can reduce the AOA a few degrees more. That's why those 2012 Cup Cars were able to get me at the end of the long straight/bank. Aero baby...
TonyG
I was afraid I might come out that way. Definitely don't mean to. I'm questioning many things to learn actually. There is still much for me to learn and I know Tony has a ton more Road Race experience than I do. Certainly in this car. I've never heard anything about the NT01's so I thought the R6's would be a stickier tire. It's been too long since I was heavily into the game and technology has changed a lot. I need to catch up. But great to know. I do know the slicks are much better and much lighter.
Tony, I thought the car was much lighter than that. I thought 500lbs lighter! It makes sense now. Thank you for answering all my questions. Once again. Get that sorted out and show em up!
Tony, I thought the car was much lighter than that. I thought 500lbs lighter! It makes sense now. Thank you for answering all my questions. Once again. Get that sorted out and show em up!
06-05-2012, 02:26 PM
#19
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No problem... and it didn't come out bad. I get it.
I've heard all over the internet how R6's are supposed to be faster than NT01's. And based on that, I bought a set and ran them at the last event. Back to back... same track, same time of day (R6's on Sat then NT01's on Sun). No other changes to the car except a tire change.
The R6's are lighter and stiffer. They feel far more like a slick in terms of response and feel. That part is great. The NT01's are heavier, have a softer sidewall, and feel more like a street tire. However... the NT01's were about a full second faster than the R6's. Here's why... the break away characteristic and the slip angle. The R6's break away faster... and when they do you have to let off the gas. You can't dive them with any sort of real slip angle. The NT01's break away slower and they don't snap.... and they like to be driven with a considerably large slip angle, which means you don't let of the gas... you stay on it. It feels like the back of the car is in a 6" slide all the way round the corner.... and you're on the gas the whole way. That makes them faster... and that was reflected in the lap times.
In fact... I took the new R6's with 3 heat cycles and sold them at the track for $400.... that's how much better the NT01's were over the R6's.
So maybe it's me, my driving style, the car, or a combination of the three. No matter... I will never buy another set of R6s'. NT01's or go straight to slicks.
The car probably had 50lbs of gas in it at the scales. And it's not that light. It's got a full glass front end, glass bumper, lexan rear and quarters, gutted under the dash, no head light assemblies, no heat/a/c, no sunroof cables/motor, no hatch motor, tiny motorcycle battery, gutted doors, etc... There's no more easy weight to get rid of on the car. The wheels & tires are heavy, the big brakes are heavy, the cage is heavy.
And based on my weight... when I go to slicks... I'll probably have to add a hundred lbs or so.
The key is large rubber and a smaller wing. The wing really slows down my top speed. I'm going to cut down the wing uprights so I can reduce the AOA a few degrees more. That's why those 2012 Cup Cars were able to get me at the end of the long straight/bank. Aero baby...
TonyG
I've heard all over the internet how R6's are supposed to be faster than NT01's. And based on that, I bought a set and ran them at the last event. Back to back... same track, same time of day (R6's on Sat then NT01's on Sun). No other changes to the car except a tire change.
The R6's are lighter and stiffer. They feel far more like a slick in terms of response and feel. That part is great. The NT01's are heavier, have a softer sidewall, and feel more like a street tire. However... the NT01's were about a full second faster than the R6's. Here's why... the break away characteristic and the slip angle. The R6's break away faster... and when they do you have to let off the gas. You can't dive them with any sort of real slip angle. The NT01's break away slower and they don't snap.... and they like to be driven with a considerably large slip angle, which means you don't let of the gas... you stay on it. It feels like the back of the car is in a 6" slide all the way round the corner.... and you're on the gas the whole way. That makes them faster... and that was reflected in the lap times.
In fact... I took the new R6's with 3 heat cycles and sold them at the track for $400.... that's how much better the NT01's were over the R6's.
So maybe it's me, my driving style, the car, or a combination of the three. No matter... I will never buy another set of R6s'. NT01's or go straight to slicks.
The car probably had 50lbs of gas in it at the scales. And it's not that light. It's got a full glass front end, glass bumper, lexan rear and quarters, gutted under the dash, no head light assemblies, no heat/a/c, no sunroof cables/motor, no hatch motor, tiny motorcycle battery, gutted doors, etc... There's no more easy weight to get rid of on the car. The wheels & tires are heavy, the big brakes are heavy, the cage is heavy.
And based on my weight... when I go to slicks... I'll probably have to add a hundred lbs or so.
The key is large rubber and a smaller wing. The wing really slows down my top speed. I'm going to cut down the wing uprights so I can reduce the AOA a few degrees more. That's why those 2012 Cup Cars were able to get me at the end of the long straight/bank. Aero baby...
TonyG
06-05-2012, 05:40 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
All you armchair quarterbacks that think Tony should be faster etc. haven't driven against those guys, in those cars.
I have, and thought Tony was doing fine especially considering the huge tire handicap. It's an old car. "Those guys" have new ones. They're better. A LOT better.
Tuning the chassis to work in the slow infield as well as on the banking (where it absolutely has to be right, or at least close) isn't that easy.
I have, and thought Tony was doing fine especially considering the huge tire handicap. It's an old car. "Those guys" have new ones. They're better. A LOT better.
Tuning the chassis to work in the slow infield as well as on the banking (where it absolutely has to be right, or at least close) isn't that easy.
If you feel that the R6s have too little slip angle to play with wait for the slicks! They will take longer to heat up too.
It was interesting to watch the differences between certain cars and yours Tony. Nice move on that Cup car setting him up on the banking at least a lap early. What happened with the ABS?
Keep them coming!
06-05-2012, 06:37 PM
#21
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#1. Excellent.
#2. It is truly amazing how much faster we are when we set up for our driving style. This is the largest reasoning for my V8 swap.
#3. Very much so on that track. But I wonder if it isn't that Aero that's allowing you to carry that kind of speed around that last bend on the oval? You are truly hauling ***** with a large lateral G- load. The best argument alone for a slow grip release in Tires. - I do understand it's banked, and in the video, it's impossible to get a feel for just how much. TWS is retarded banked. I have to go 139 mph just to keep gravity from pulling me to the inside of the turn. - But they rarely let us drive on that. Texans are too crazy to be allowed on that.
06-05-2012, 11:02 PM
#23
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
I didn't read Bruce's comments as negative against Tony's abilities. Not sure why Rob keeps busting your chops though?
If you feel that the R6s have too little slip angle to play with wait for the slicks! They will take longer to heat up too.
It was interesting to watch the differences between certain cars and yours Tony. Nice move on that Cup car setting him up on the banking at least a lap early. What happened with the ABS?
Keep them coming!
If you feel that the R6s have too little slip angle to play with wait for the slicks! They will take longer to heat up too.
It was interesting to watch the differences between certain cars and yours Tony. Nice move on that Cup car setting him up on the banking at least a lap early. What happened with the ABS?
Keep them coming!
Without the extra grip... the R6 just isn't worth it. Not to mention that the NT01's don't heat cycle out and have 3x the tread to begin with so they last much longer.
I don't know what happend to the ABS. I'm getting a "wheel sensor not present" error, even though the wheel sensor is there and during system diagnostic tests, it sees the wheel and correctly sees the speed of the wheel.
Also, the warning light output doesn't work on the unit.
I suspect that I have a faulty unit.
TonyG
06-05-2012, 11:03 PM
#24
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
Tony, I find the NT-01's (like RA-1's) very sensitive to inflation pressure, requiring 39-40 (hot) to adequately support the carcass shape. Even one pound less than that and the grip falls off noticeably. The "driveability" feels better at lower pressures due to carcass flexing (maybe this is some of that slip angle you're feeling?) but the ultimate grip suffers.
And actually, I liked they way they felt with more air pressure in them.
TonyG
06-05-2012, 11:07 PM
#26
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Thread Starter
Here's another video... this one from last Sat 6/02/2012 which was the POC Tribute to LeMans 4 hour enduro at Auto Club Speedway in Fontana CA.
This video started in the first lap because I forgot to start the recorder before the green flag dropped.
The video goes from the start of the race until my first pit stop (a full tank of gas).
TonyG
>> PS... I wasn't driving that fast since it was a 4 hour enduro and we were trying to do it on 1 set of tires... plus I was fighting a drink hose that was spewing water in my face....
This video started in the first lap because I forgot to start the recorder before the green flag dropped.
The video goes from the start of the race until my first pit stop (a full tank of gas).
TonyG
>> PS... I wasn't driving that fast since it was a 4 hour enduro and we were trying to do it on 1 set of tires... plus I was fighting a drink hose that was spewing water in my face....
06-06-2012, 12:41 AM
#27
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Is the class you run in based on power to weight ratio?
You could probably shed 40+ pounds (per side, but don't quote me, I could be wrong because we did it 2 years ago) by gutting out the doors and removing the window frames. I just remember we were surprised on how much weight came out the doors. You could also cut out the spare tire well and "side" compartments in the rear, and could rivet in sheet aluminum or something.
You could replace the front glass windshield with an old lexan nascar windshield. You will have to cut it to size.
Thanks for posting up your vids. I always enjoy watching them.
You could probably shed 40+ pounds (per side, but don't quote me, I could be wrong because we did it 2 years ago) by gutting out the doors and removing the window frames. I just remember we were surprised on how much weight came out the doors. You could also cut out the spare tire well and "side" compartments in the rear, and could rivet in sheet aluminum or something.
You could replace the front glass windshield with an old lexan nascar windshield. You will have to cut it to size.
Thanks for posting up your vids. I always enjoy watching them.
06-06-2012, 02:48 AM
#29
Three Wheelin'
Thanks for posting, Tony. Your videos are always fun to watch.
First of all, what gear oil did you change to that made such a dramatic difference, and what were you running before? Friction modifiers are only for street cars with LSD that are experiencing disc chatter/wheel hop in slower turns on the street. In a track car, you want those discs to grip as much as possible! I have run Swepco 201 in my factory LSD equipped 951 with great results for 4.5 years and ~10K track miles, and all the street miles in between (146K miles total!). Though it was originally designed for older Porsche transaxles with baulk-ring synchros (356 and 901/915/930), it works very well in conventionally synchroed trannys like G50s as well. We had 2 customers with heavily tracked 600+hp 993TTs that had always run Swepco 201 it and the internals looked like new when they came apart.
Watching this video, I cannot help but think that it looks remarkably similar to watching an onboard video of my car, except on fast forward! My car is nearly stock, with only Tarett sways and Koni yellows for suspension mods, and I run street tires (Dunlop Z1 Star Spec or Hankook RS-3), 225s on all 4 corners. What Tony is up against with the Cup cars is proportional to what I face in POC time trials and short track events in my daily driven 951. The rest of the cars in my run group are all newer Porsches (996/997/Cayman, a number of GT3s and Turbos), with at least 100 more hp, and most have coilovers and wide R-comp tires. These 944s do not have the most sophisticated suspension designs in the world, and we have trouble putting the power down out of tight turns at the best of times, especially compared to rear-engined 911s. But, I do a good job of hanging with them regardless, as does Tony. We depend on driving the living crap out of the car and gaining on turn-in, and in tight transitional sections and chicanes.
Even without being able to see the steering angle, it is noticeable how tentative Tony is on the throttle out of the low speed turns, and there is some oversteer evident in the right hand portion of the turn 3 chicane coming out of the oval. That is pretty tough to drive around. The braking also seems very early, but I would not want to flat spot a tire and then drive 165+ on the oval!
Again good stuff, I will hopefully see you at Laguna Seca in August!
First of all, what gear oil did you change to that made such a dramatic difference, and what were you running before? Friction modifiers are only for street cars with LSD that are experiencing disc chatter/wheel hop in slower turns on the street. In a track car, you want those discs to grip as much as possible! I have run Swepco 201 in my factory LSD equipped 951 with great results for 4.5 years and ~10K track miles, and all the street miles in between (146K miles total!). Though it was originally designed for older Porsche transaxles with baulk-ring synchros (356 and 901/915/930), it works very well in conventionally synchroed trannys like G50s as well. We had 2 customers with heavily tracked 600+hp 993TTs that had always run Swepco 201 it and the internals looked like new when they came apart.
Watching this video, I cannot help but think that it looks remarkably similar to watching an onboard video of my car, except on fast forward! My car is nearly stock, with only Tarett sways and Koni yellows for suspension mods, and I run street tires (Dunlop Z1 Star Spec or Hankook RS-3), 225s on all 4 corners. What Tony is up against with the Cup cars is proportional to what I face in POC time trials and short track events in my daily driven 951. The rest of the cars in my run group are all newer Porsches (996/997/Cayman, a number of GT3s and Turbos), with at least 100 more hp, and most have coilovers and wide R-comp tires. These 944s do not have the most sophisticated suspension designs in the world, and we have trouble putting the power down out of tight turns at the best of times, especially compared to rear-engined 911s. But, I do a good job of hanging with them regardless, as does Tony. We depend on driving the living crap out of the car and gaining on turn-in, and in tight transitional sections and chicanes.
Even without being able to see the steering angle, it is noticeable how tentative Tony is on the throttle out of the low speed turns, and there is some oversteer evident in the right hand portion of the turn 3 chicane coming out of the oval. That is pretty tough to drive around. The braking also seems very early, but I would not want to flat spot a tire and then drive 165+ on the oval!
Again good stuff, I will hopefully see you at Laguna Seca in August!
06-06-2012, 01:06 PM
#30
Burning Brakes
Thanks for posting, Tony. Your videos are always fun to watch.
First of all, what gear oil did you change to that made such a dramatic difference, and what were you running before? Friction modifiers are only for street cars with LSD that are experiencing disc chatter/wheel hop in slower turns on the street. In a track car, you want those discs to grip as much as possible! I have run Swepco 201 in my factory LSD equipped 951 with great results for 4.5 years and ~10K track miles, and all the street miles in between (146K miles total!). Though it was originally designed for older Porsche transaxles with baulk-ring synchros (356 and 901/915/930), it works very well in conventionally synchroed trannys like G50s as well. We had 2 customers with heavily tracked 600+hp 993TTs that had always run Swepco 201 it and the internals looked like new when they came apart.
Watching this video, I cannot help but think that it looks remarkably similar to watching an onboard video of my car, except on fast forward! My car is nearly stock, with only Tarett sways and Koni yellows for suspension mods, and I run street tires (Dunlop Z1 Star Spec or Hankook RS-3), 225s on all 4 corners. What Tony is up against with the Cup cars is proportional to what I face in POC time trials and short track events in my daily driven 951. The rest of the cars in my run group are all newer Porsches (996/997/Cayman, a number of GT3s and Turbos), with at least 100 more hp, and most have coilovers and wide R-comp tires. These 944s do not have the most sophisticated suspension designs in the world, and we have trouble putting the power down out of tight turns at the best of times, especially compared to rear-engined 911s. But, I do a good job of hanging with them regardless, as does Tony. We depend on driving the living crap out of the car and gaining on turn-in, and in tight transitional sections and chicanes.
Even without being able to see the steering angle, it is noticeable how tentative Tony is on the throttle out of the low speed turns, and there is some oversteer evident in the right hand portion of the turn 3 chicane coming out of the oval. That is pretty tough to drive around. The braking also seems very early, but I would not want to flat spot a tire and then drive 165+ on the oval!
Again good stuff, I will hopefully see you at Laguna Seca in August!
First of all, what gear oil did you change to that made such a dramatic difference, and what were you running before? Friction modifiers are only for street cars with LSD that are experiencing disc chatter/wheel hop in slower turns on the street. In a track car, you want those discs to grip as much as possible! I have run Swepco 201 in my factory LSD equipped 951 with great results for 4.5 years and ~10K track miles, and all the street miles in between (146K miles total!). Though it was originally designed for older Porsche transaxles with baulk-ring synchros (356 and 901/915/930), it works very well in conventionally synchroed trannys like G50s as well. We had 2 customers with heavily tracked 600+hp 993TTs that had always run Swepco 201 it and the internals looked like new when they came apart.
Watching this video, I cannot help but think that it looks remarkably similar to watching an onboard video of my car, except on fast forward! My car is nearly stock, with only Tarett sways and Koni yellows for suspension mods, and I run street tires (Dunlop Z1 Star Spec or Hankook RS-3), 225s on all 4 corners. What Tony is up against with the Cup cars is proportional to what I face in POC time trials and short track events in my daily driven 951. The rest of the cars in my run group are all newer Porsches (996/997/Cayman, a number of GT3s and Turbos), with at least 100 more hp, and most have coilovers and wide R-comp tires. These 944s do not have the most sophisticated suspension designs in the world, and we have trouble putting the power down out of tight turns at the best of times, especially compared to rear-engined 911s. But, I do a good job of hanging with them regardless, as does Tony. We depend on driving the living crap out of the car and gaining on turn-in, and in tight transitional sections and chicanes.
Even without being able to see the steering angle, it is noticeable how tentative Tony is on the throttle out of the low speed turns, and there is some oversteer evident in the right hand portion of the turn 3 chicane coming out of the oval. That is pretty tough to drive around. The braking also seems very early, but I would not want to flat spot a tire and then drive 165+ on the oval!
Again good stuff, I will hopefully see you at Laguna Seca in August!
Hey Chris, be sure to check your A arms before Laguna...
