NEW TURBO ADVISE
12-23-2002, 11:48 AM
#1
Racer
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NEW TURBO ADVISE
Current configuration:
'87 951, 2.5, 46mm Tial wastegate, & MAF.
What Turbo woould you go with and why?
Street use. Occasional track in the future.
'87 951, 2.5, 46mm Tial wastegate, & MAF.
What Turbo woould you go with and why?
Street use. Occasional track in the future.
12-23-2002, 06:09 PM
#4
Racer
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Hey Danno-
In this case it has to be a new Turbo. Old one is out of the car... Long story. I've looked at all of the threads posted. Talked to TEC and several other Turbo sellers. Interesting, with all of the conversations and reading there is no concensus.
I've had a K28/8 in the car. A lot of high end, HUGE, about the same spool-up as the K27/8 that was in there before...turbo laaaaag, or as I refer to it slag,(for slow and lag).
I liked what TEC had to say. They sounded knowledgeable. So did SFR....so did many others.
Sounded odd that the TEC Garrett needed to do something with the manifold to install their turbo. TEC/Garrett sounded like it would spool up very quickly
I guess I want what everyone wants. Very fast spool up....with as little lag as possible.
320rwhp and hold the boost as soon long as possible.
Kind of reminds me of my golf swing, everyone has an opinion! The car has more potential than my swing though!
Regards
Jaxon
In this case it has to be a new Turbo. Old one is out of the car... Long story. I've looked at all of the threads posted. Talked to TEC and several other Turbo sellers. Interesting, with all of the conversations and reading there is no concensus.
I've had a K28/8 in the car. A lot of high end, HUGE, about the same spool-up as the K27/8 that was in there before...turbo laaaaag, or as I refer to it slag,(for slow and lag).
I liked what TEC had to say. They sounded knowledgeable. So did SFR....so did many others.
Sounded odd that the TEC Garrett needed to do something with the manifold to install their turbo. TEC/Garrett sounded like it would spool up very quickly
I guess I want what everyone wants. Very fast spool up....with as little lag as possible.
320rwhp and hold the boost as soon long as possible.
Kind of reminds me of my golf swing, everyone has an opinion! The car has more potential than my swing though!
Regards
Jaxon
12-23-2002, 06:42 PM
#5
Race Director
From what you mentioned above and 320rwhp, I say go with a Garrett TO4B-series turbo with the smaller #6 hotside. Will give quicker spool-up than stock, much much faster than K27/K28 and will hold boost to redline. At 16psi boost and our MAP kit, you'll have a broad and wide torque-curve and 320rwhp (no convex-shaped torque-curves that hit suddenly allowed!). However, this will be close to the maximum for these turbos.
12-23-2002, 06:59 PM
#6
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Thanks for the input Danno.
So if I understand you correctly, I won't get the Turbo rush with this configuration?
If not, is there a better Turbo which will give you a steep curve, power like the K28/8, doesn't require me shifting out of gear before it reaches it's potential, and doesn't have quite the lag I've talked about?
Jaxon
So if I understand you correctly, I won't get the Turbo rush with this configuration?
If not, is there a better Turbo which will give you a steep curve, power like the K28/8, doesn't require me shifting out of gear before it reaches it's potential, and doesn't have quite the lag I've talked about?
Jaxon
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12-24-2002, 12:56 AM
#8
[QUOTE]From what you mentioned above and 320rwhp, I say go with a Garrett TO4B-series turbo with the smaller #6 hotside. Will give quicker spool-up than stock, much much faster than K27/K28 and will hold boost to redline. At 16psi boost and our MAP kit, you'll have a broad and wide torque-curve and 320rwhp (no convex-shaped torque-curves that hit suddenly allowed!). However, this will be close to the maximum for these turbos. QUOTE]
Danno,
What trim do you think is best for that kind of power?
I am going for that exact setup for next summer.
T04B-S trim w/ #6 ceramic coated turbine housing, Your map kit and a new wastegate.
Do you think a S trim will be to small or should i go for a V trim.
From playing around with the turbo calc. on turbofast.com.au i figured a S trim would work good for my needs.(325whp)
Whats your opinion?
Thanks
Danno,
What trim do you think is best for that kind of power?
I am going for that exact setup for next summer.
T04B-S trim w/ #6 ceramic coated turbine housing, Your map kit and a new wastegate.
Do you think a S trim will be to small or should i go for a V trim.
From playing around with the turbo calc. on turbofast.com.au i figured a S trim would work good for my needs.(325whp)
Whats your opinion?
Thanks
12-24-2002, 01:53 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
I purchased a T04B-H3 with a #6 hotside. Danno said this would be a quick spool turbo that will produce around 320HP at the wheels. I really wanted a quick spool turbo that will boost hard and fast so I can feel it. I'm hoping this Turbo will suit my needs (not installed yet).
12-27-2002, 02:25 AM
#10
[quote] I purchased a T04B-H3 with a #6 hotside. Danno said this would be a quick spool turbo that will produce around 320HP at the wheels. <hr></blockquote>
Really a h3??? That trim seems to flow for high low presure ratio /high cfm motors and if i did my calculation properlly a 951 motor does not run high cfm's. It needs low cfm and medium presure ratio
I will recalculate it tomorow and post my ###'s
(this is from what i've read and learn... i'm no expert)
Really a h3??? That trim seems to flow for high low presure ratio /high cfm motors and if i did my calculation properlly a 951 motor does not run high cfm's. It needs low cfm and medium presure ratio
I will recalculate it tomorow and post my ###'s
(this is from what i've read and learn... i'm no expert)
12-27-2002, 10:44 PM
#11
Race Director
"Really a h3??? That trim seems to flow for high low presure ratio /high cfm motors and if i did my calculation properlly a 951 motor does not run high cfm's. "
Shoot.... I might have made a mistake on that one. Looks like the TO4B-S3 may be best for a moderate boost 300hp motor:
The H3 may be better for a 3.0L engine...
Shoot.... I might have made a mistake on that one. Looks like the TO4B-S3 may be best for a moderate boost 300hp motor:
The H3 may be better for a 3.0L engine...
12-28-2002, 01:56 AM
#12
Nordschleife Master
Im looking for 320-330HP from this turbo so what do I need then. My setup hasn't been delivered yet so I can make a change. Does a T04B V1 look more like what I need?
Dan
Dan
12-28-2002, 04:54 AM
#13
Race Director
Hmmm, with a 2.5L , you may still not be pushing enough flow for a V1 trim...
Being that close to the surge-limit will cause more turbo-lag. But the high-end is right in the sweet-spot of the turbo's most efficient range.
An S3 may give you less lag...
... and the high-end is out of the sweet-spot, but not by much, you're only losing about 1.5hp anyway.
Being that close to the surge-limit will cause more turbo-lag. But the high-end is right in the sweet-spot of the turbo's most efficient range.
An S3 may give you less lag...
... and the high-end is out of the sweet-spot, but not by much, you're only losing about 1.5hp anyway.
12-29-2002, 06:53 AM
#14
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Danno, you mention that for a T04-B about 330 RWHP is about the maximum.
On another thread <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=003334" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=003334</a> TonyG claims that with a
Garrett T04, .70 A/R, P trim, w/ T04-B 60-1 HI-FI
he is shooting for 425 RWHP.
You both seem to know what you are talking about. Any comments?
Hans
On another thread <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=003334" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=003334</a> TonyG claims that with a
Garrett T04, .70 A/R, P trim, w/ T04-B 60-1 HI-FI
he is shooting for 425 RWHP.
You both seem to know what you are talking about. Any comments?
Hans
12-29-2002, 07:35 AM
#15
Race Director
"Danno, you mention that for a T04-B about 330 RWHP is about the maximum. "
That's for the TO4B-S3/V1 variations we've been talking about. Part of the limitation is the small KKK-#6 turbine side that these compressors will be mated to in order to minimize turbo-lag. As such, it's not recommended to drive them past 16psi due to the excessive exhaust backpressure that would result from trying to get that much power out of such a small turbine (to spin the compressor).
The TO4B designation refers to the outer housing (shell) of the turbo compressor. Then the AR is an indicator of the sizing of the wheel compared to the housing. And the final 60-1 HI-FI is the specific wheel itself. That particular combination can achieve 420hp similar to this one (60-1HiFi wheel flows about 15% less than 60-1, so it won't be so close to the surge limit):
We actually have a sample of this turbo in one of our cars. With the previous owner, it got 420hp/510lb-ft torque @ 18psi boost.
Picking a turbo is the easy part, like shopping for a suit. You can pick up pieces here and there without any trouble. But getting the entire ensemble to work well together to give a result that's greater than the sum of its parts is not easy.
The equivalent challenge on our cars is then, is how do you figure out and program in the optimum fuel & ignition maps to make the most of your particular combination of parts?
That's for the TO4B-S3/V1 variations we've been talking about. Part of the limitation is the small KKK-#6 turbine side that these compressors will be mated to in order to minimize turbo-lag. As such, it's not recommended to drive them past 16psi due to the excessive exhaust backpressure that would result from trying to get that much power out of such a small turbine (to spin the compressor).
The TO4B designation refers to the outer housing (shell) of the turbo compressor. Then the AR is an indicator of the sizing of the wheel compared to the housing. And the final 60-1 HI-FI is the specific wheel itself. That particular combination can achieve 420hp similar to this one (60-1HiFi wheel flows about 15% less than 60-1, so it won't be so close to the surge limit):
We actually have a sample of this turbo in one of our cars. With the previous owner, it got 420hp/510lb-ft torque @ 18psi boost.
Picking a turbo is the easy part, like shopping for a suit. You can pick up pieces here and there without any trouble. But getting the entire ensemble to work well together to give a result that's greater than the sum of its parts is not easy.
The equivalent challenge on our cars is then, is how do you figure out and program in the optimum fuel & ignition maps to make the most of your particular combination of parts?