spherical bearings / solid bushings on a street car?
04-18-2003, 05:55 AM
#31
Three Wheelin'
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thx for the input chris! i'm still torn if i am going to run with the sphericals after your email and this post, unless i find other failures that can be avoided - while the car is a street-driven car, my goal is to be very competative at autox, and to start tracking the car, a little this year, and hopefully a LOT more soon... so i want to stick w/ these. if i find this is a problem, switching back to stock rubber won't kill me or my budget, but we'll see....
re: tranny mounts, etc. -- after a lengthly discussion with dave lindsey today, i ordered a kokeln solid trans. mount (actually not from lindsey, i felt bad but they were out of stock for several weeks, and so dave suggested stable energies in nj). he said that, with stiffer-than-stock-but-still-rubber (ie, NOT A SOLID ONE) motor mounts should allow the drivetrain to move enough to reduce / eliminate vibration (other than road-noise/feel thru the shifter but a real driver keeps both hands on the wheel 95+% of the time
), but he also said it eliminated the unpredictability of that big heavy (what, 150-200 if i recall from shipping mine) transaxle swinging around on that tubular hanger / piece. basically, it's like having a 200lb kid jumping back and forth in the back of your car, not exacftly the best for predictibility nor consistant cornering.
if anyone has actual experience with this setup (dave does, or i wouldn't be doing this) please let me know, good or bad.
other than that, i'm very excited about this whole project, i'm going to try and keep the car light, it's getting SOME carpet, or maybe a thin spray-on rino-liner / line-x style coating under the front area, just for ease of cleaning, wet traction etc... and i'm going to hopefully fab up carbon fiber dash, center console pieces and door panels (with alcantera to match the seats). it's gonna be a street car, but with a STRONG emphasis on it's racing history, performance, and enough comforts to drive on a trip, but "raw" and fun enough to remember what it is every day (aka, minimal stereo, very basic dash/etc. with a custom switch panel for thigns like lights, fans, and so on).
i hope to share this process with rennlist - wish me luck <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
re: tranny mounts, etc. -- after a lengthly discussion with dave lindsey today, i ordered a kokeln solid trans. mount (actually not from lindsey, i felt bad but they were out of stock for several weeks, and so dave suggested stable energies in nj). he said that, with stiffer-than-stock-but-still-rubber (ie, NOT A SOLID ONE) motor mounts should allow the drivetrain to move enough to reduce / eliminate vibration (other than road-noise/feel thru the shifter but a real driver keeps both hands on the wheel 95+% of the time
), but he also said it eliminated the unpredictability of that big heavy (what, 150-200 if i recall from shipping mine) transaxle swinging around on that tubular hanger / piece. basically, it's like having a 200lb kid jumping back and forth in the back of your car, not exacftly the best for predictibility nor consistant cornering.if anyone has actual experience with this setup (dave does, or i wouldn't be doing this) please let me know, good or bad.
other than that, i'm very excited about this whole project, i'm going to try and keep the car light, it's getting SOME carpet, or maybe a thin spray-on rino-liner / line-x style coating under the front area, just for ease of cleaning, wet traction etc... and i'm going to hopefully fab up carbon fiber dash, center console pieces and door panels (with alcantera to match the seats). it's gonna be a street car, but with a STRONG emphasis on it's racing history, performance, and enough comforts to drive on a trip, but "raw" and fun enough to remember what it is every day (aka, minimal stereo, very basic dash/etc. with a custom switch panel for thigns like lights, fans, and so on).
i hope to share this process with rennlist - wish me luck <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
04-18-2003, 01:05 PM
#32
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Chris, what do you recommend for the spring plate bushings on 944's. I was getting so much deflection on my '89 on the track that the spring plates are rubbing against the aluminum part of the torsion bar carrier, This is with Khumo's v700.
04-19-2003, 02:25 AM
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The spring plate bushings are a trouble spot. The only correct way is to install roller bearings like KMR does. This is not easy or cheap.
I suggest new spring plates (which include the bushings). I would rather run beat stock bushings than new plastic ones. This is an area where a plastic bushing can work, but the suspension parts that the bushings rotate against are not machined to a certain dimension. That makes it impossible to produce a bushing that fits all 944s.
I suggest new spring plates (which include the bushings). I would rather run beat stock bushings than new plastic ones. This is an area where a plastic bushing can work, but the suspension parts that the bushings rotate against are not machined to a certain dimension. That makes it impossible to produce a bushing that fits all 944s.
04-19-2003, 11:44 AM
#34
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Dave,
On my race car (as described above), I had Kokeln solid motor mounts and the Kokeln solid tranny mount. The car vibrated way too much ...to the point that the oilpan bolts would fall out. I just installed the new "supermounts" from Lindsey and kept the solid tranny mount on the back. What a huge difference with the new "supermounts" !
It is now as quiet as a street car .. absolutely NO vibration at all. They are of course $500 for the set .. but a small price to pay to cure the problem.
944turbo
On my race car (as described above), I had Kokeln solid motor mounts and the Kokeln solid tranny mount. The car vibrated way too much ...to the point that the oilpan bolts would fall out. I just installed the new "supermounts" from Lindsey and kept the solid tranny mount on the back. What a huge difference with the new "supermounts" !
It is now as quiet as a street car .. absolutely NO vibration at all. They are of course $500 for the set .. but a small price to pay to cure the problem.
944turbo
04-19-2003, 01:01 PM
#35
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that's exactly what i'm doing actually - dave told me horror stories about oil pan bolts, etc. and chris told me to avoid solid motor mounts - and i didn't want the vibration so i got a kokeln tranny mount from stableengergies.com and dave is sending me the motor mounts you described. pricey little buggers compared to stock, but i wanted something with much less movement/flex than stock, yet still "streetable" - glad to hear your experience with it was positive!
04-19-2003, 02:24 PM
#36
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Definitely something to consider in making this groovy chassis more streetable is tire selection. I know that when I drive my car to the track with it's spherical trailing arm bearings and delrin spring plate bushings and urethane torsion tube carrier bushings it's a heck of a lot worse with the Hoosiers on than when I've got my street tires on and drive it every other day.
04-19-2003, 10:36 PM
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I first want to say you are making a great purchase by buying Chris's car. I saw Chris drive that car at Sebring a couple of years ago and he wast FAST!!!! He was driving the only 944 Turbo I saw that could run with the big dogs. It just goes to show what a great driver in a great car can do.
My suggestion for driving the car on the street will be to leave everything as you bought it - spherical bearings and all. I think the key will be to run 16" wheels on the street. With these "smaller" wheels you will be able to run tires with a bit taller of a sidewall thus giving you quite a bit more of a cushion effect than 17" or 18" wheels would allow. Only run the bigger 17s or 18s when you are at the track.
Have fun!!!!!
Jeff
My suggestion for driving the car on the street will be to leave everything as you bought it - spherical bearings and all. I think the key will be to run 16" wheels on the street. With these "smaller" wheels you will be able to run tires with a bit taller of a sidewall thus giving you quite a bit more of a cushion effect than 17" or 18" wheels would allow. Only run the bigger 17s or 18s when you are at the track.
Have fun!!!!!
Jeff
04-20-2003, 02:22 AM
#38
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Hi dmoffitt,
Q: Did you actually buy the car? I noticed in e-Bay it mentions "reserve not met"
If you did, congratulations, on a great buy at a great price. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> We are building two cars on slightly lower specs, at more then twice the money. <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> Wish he sold this half a year ago.
We have one test car running street/track on spherical bearings / solid bushings. Tires make all the difference, it runs on 16" street tires, 17" track tires. Lowering is another differentiator. We have lowered the car 2", which makes it less streetable.
We do run very frequent inspections though. Wear on street use we suspect to be higher.
Good luck with your car! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
Q: Did you actually buy the car? I noticed in e-Bay it mentions "reserve not met"
If you did, congratulations, on a great buy at a great price. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> We are building two cars on slightly lower specs, at more then twice the money. <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" /> Wish he sold this half a year ago.
We have one test car running street/track on spherical bearings / solid bushings. Tires make all the difference, it runs on 16" street tires, 17" track tires. Lowering is another differentiator. We have lowered the car 2", which makes it less streetable.
We do run very frequent inspections though. Wear on street use we suspect to be higher.
Good luck with your car! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
04-20-2003, 06:25 AM
#39
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yeah, i bought it - we made a deal off ebay as to my special circumstances (car being totaled, etc.)
i think after reading all of this, i'm gonna run it as chris sends it. he threw in a set of 18" wheels and i supplied tires (so we could get the car up here) - they're pretty beat up, and at 7.5" front and 10" rear, not anywhere near wide enough for this car -- i don't believe i can clear a 16" wheel with the brakes on the car... but i will certainly look into a set of 17s that can clear the brakes but have a LOT more tire/sidewall. that was my goal, i'm not getting 18s for show, but out of necessity (can't afford kinesis / fiske / bbs wheels in the necessary size, after paying for the motor, this chassis, and even the nearly 1k in tires).
any suggestions on wheel/tire combos would be great - chris was running 18x10 (or maybe 10.5?) in the front and like 18x12 or 12.5 i think in the rear - he said it could take up to a 335 tire or something really crazy along those lines - so where can i get reasonably priced, fairly strong yet light weight 17x?? wheels + rubber (sounds like a pipe dream!)
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
i think after reading all of this, i'm gonna run it as chris sends it. he threw in a set of 18" wheels and i supplied tires (so we could get the car up here) - they're pretty beat up, and at 7.5" front and 10" rear, not anywhere near wide enough for this car -- i don't believe i can clear a 16" wheel with the brakes on the car... but i will certainly look into a set of 17s that can clear the brakes but have a LOT more tire/sidewall. that was my goal, i'm not getting 18s for show, but out of necessity (can't afford kinesis / fiske / bbs wheels in the necessary size, after paying for the motor, this chassis, and even the nearly 1k in tires).
any suggestions on wheel/tire combos would be great - chris was running 18x10 (or maybe 10.5?) in the front and like 18x12 or 12.5 i think in the rear - he said it could take up to a 335 tire or something really crazy along those lines - so where can i get reasonably priced, fairly strong yet light weight 17x?? wheels + rubber (sounds like a pipe dream!)
<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
04-21-2003, 04:46 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by dmoffitt:
<strong>re: tranny mounts, etc. -- after a lengthly discussion with dave lindsey today, i ordered a kokeln solid trans. mount (actually not from lindsey, i felt bad but they were out of stock for several weeks, and so dave suggested stable energies in nj). he said that, with stiffer-than-stock-but-still-rubber (ie, NOT A SOLID ONE) motor mounts should allow the drivetrain to move enough to reduce / eliminate vibration (other than road-noise/feel thru the shifter but a real driver keeps both hands on the wheel 95+% of the time ), but he also said it eliminated the unpredictability of that big heavy (what, 150-200 if i recall from shipping mine) transaxle swinging around on that tubular hanger / piece. basically, it's like having a 200lb kid jumping back and forth in the back of your car, not exacftly the best for predictibility nor consistant cornering.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I have Kokelin solid trans and engine mounts on my car.
Other than more buzzing, I haven't really noticed any handling improvements.
I don't understand how the tansaxle can swing around on the hander. The transaxle
is bolted to the torque tube. The torque tube is bolted to the bellhousing. The tansaxle
can't move fore / aft because of the torque tube. It's can't really move left or right
because of the bracket. I supposed it could twist a little, but describing it as a
200 lb kid jumping back and forth is sort of silly.
Barry
<strong>re: tranny mounts, etc. -- after a lengthly discussion with dave lindsey today, i ordered a kokeln solid trans. mount (actually not from lindsey, i felt bad but they were out of stock for several weeks, and so dave suggested stable energies in nj). he said that, with stiffer-than-stock-but-still-rubber (ie, NOT A SOLID ONE) motor mounts should allow the drivetrain to move enough to reduce / eliminate vibration (other than road-noise/feel thru the shifter but a real driver keeps both hands on the wheel 95+% of the time
), but he also said it eliminated the unpredictability of that big heavy (what, 150-200 if i recall from shipping mine) transaxle swinging around on that tubular hanger / piece. basically, it's like having a 200lb kid jumping back and forth in the back of your car, not exacftly the best for predictibility nor consistant cornering.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I have Kokelin solid trans and engine mounts on my car.Other than more buzzing, I haven't really noticed any handling improvements.
I don't understand how the tansaxle can swing around on the hander. The transaxle
is bolted to the torque tube. The torque tube is bolted to the bellhousing. The tansaxle
can't move fore / aft because of the torque tube. It's can't really move left or right
because of the bracket. I supposed it could twist a little, but describing it as a
200 lb kid jumping back and forth is sort of silly.
Barry
04-21-2003, 05:19 PM
#41
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ok so i over-dramatized it a touch
but it can/does move. not drastically, but it's on a rubber hanger which can stretch/deform.
so you haven't had any problems with the kokeln solid engine mounts? are they the stock sized ones or 5mm lower ones lindsey offers? and by buzzing do you mean an rpm-based vibration? i'm still not sold on solid engine mounts and probably never will be, i'm just curious to hear other's experiences with them...
but it can/does move. not drastically, but it's on a rubber hanger which can stretch/deform.
so you haven't had any problems with the kokeln solid engine mounts? are they the stock sized ones or 5mm lower ones lindsey offers? and by buzzing do you mean an rpm-based vibration? i'm still not sold on solid engine mounts and probably never will be, i'm just curious to hear other's experiences with them...
04-22-2003, 03:53 PM
#42
Race Car
DAILY DRIVER IN ROCHA-CHA???
Yikes, good luck with that. What are you gonna drive in the winter we have 9 out of 12 months a year?
Who are you insured through? I had a hard time finding someone insure my "high performance vehicle" for a reasonable price. Not to mention the outrageous gas prices we still have for whatever reason. Are you gonna have the car ready for the team vertigo (www.teamvertigo.org)show at RIT?
Yikes, good luck with that. What are you gonna drive in the winter we have 9 out of 12 months a year?
Who are you insured through? I had a hard time finding someone insure my "high performance vehicle" for a reasonable price. Not to mention the outrageous gas prices we still have for whatever reason. Are you gonna have the car ready for the team vertigo (www.teamvertigo.org)show at RIT?
04-22-2003, 04:01 PM
#43
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by dmoffitt:
<strong>so you haven't had any problems with the kokeln solid engine mounts? are they the stock sized ones or 5mm lower ones lindsey offers? and by buzzing do you mean an rpm-based vibration? i'm still not sold on solid engine mounts and probably never will be, i'm just curious to hear other's experiences with them...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I have the basic Kokeln solid engine and transmission mounts.
By buzzing I mean a lot of vibration from the engine and from
the transmission. The trans is also a LOT noiser. When I first
drove the car after the mounts were installed, I thought my
ring and pinion was shot! You can hear every gear. I would absolutely
hate it for the street. Since my car is a racer, I don't really care
about the extra noise, and, above 4000 rpm, the vibration seems
to get better.
Barry
<strong>so you haven't had any problems with the kokeln solid engine mounts? are they the stock sized ones or 5mm lower ones lindsey offers? and by buzzing do you mean an rpm-based vibration? i'm still not sold on solid engine mounts and probably never will be, i'm just curious to hear other's experiences with them...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I have the basic Kokeln solid engine and transmission mounts.
By buzzing I mean a lot of vibration from the engine and from
the transmission. The trans is also a LOT noiser. When I first
drove the car after the mounts were installed, I thought my
ring and pinion was shot! You can hear every gear. I would absolutely
hate it for the street. Since my car is a racer, I don't really care
about the extra noise, and, above 4000 rpm, the vibration seems
to get better.
Barry
04-23-2003, 10:19 AM
#44
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i'm insured thru USAA (dad was in the navy for 22+ years).
i doubt this car will see a flake of snow, i'm looking into something for next winter.
re: the teamvertigo car show, i'm a vertigo member, so i darned well hope it's there
i doubt this car will see a flake of snow, i'm looking into something for next winter.
re: the teamvertigo car show, i'm a vertigo member, so i darned well hope it's there
04-23-2003, 10:53 AM
#45
Race Car
Take this for what it's worth. Rochester drivers are terrible, if you should get that car totalled like your last car, I'd hate to see what it'd cost to fix it. I'd get an everyday car and dedicate that to track/auto-x. Can you name 1 road in Rochester that isn't going to feel like you were just air dropped from 2 miles up? I'd just hate to see you disappointed in a sweet car because it doesn't like potholes and something breaks on your daily commute.
Of course, it's your decision, and everyone may be wrong about how "streetable" the car is. Good luck either way. I wasn't going to stop by RIT for the show, but I may swing by to see your car.
Of course, it's your decision, and everyone may be wrong about how "streetable" the car is. Good luck either way. I wasn't going to stop by RIT for the show, but I may swing by to see your car.