TurboS Modification Strategy
02-20-2003, 08:30 PM
#1
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TurboS Modification Strategy
I just brought home an '88 TurboS that I will be using for both a street car as well as for DE events. The car only has 14000 miles on it and already has a roll cage & Recaro Seats w/ 6pt belts installed. The suspension is stock but has been lowered and recently corner balanced.
I know the discussion about modications on any Porsche is kind of like a drug (once you're started you can't stop...) but I'll start anyway.
Essentially, I'd like to squeeze some additional performance out of the engine without comprimising drivability and reliability.
Is the modification process and the best things to do to get more engine performance any different between the Turbo and a TurboS?
I've seen the posts that reference the suggestion to get a built engine - I can't do that so will focus on bolt-on mods.
What's the best "bang for the buck" mods and what's the most logical order to buy these mods if I'm thinking about roughly $500-1500 every six months?
Thanks much.
I know the discussion about modications on any Porsche is kind of like a drug (once you're started you can't stop...) but I'll start anyway.
Essentially, I'd like to squeeze some additional performance out of the engine without comprimising drivability and reliability.
Is the modification process and the best things to do to get more engine performance any different between the Turbo and a TurboS?
I've seen the posts that reference the suggestion to get a built engine - I can't do that so will focus on bolt-on mods.
What's the best "bang for the buck" mods and what's the most logical order to buy these mods if I'm thinking about roughly $500-1500 every six months?
Thanks much.
02-20-2003, 09:02 PM
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Brake pads and tires were my first change, consider a spare set of wheels and track tires. Then add chips and a test pipe if not already done. Finally, spend the rest of your $$ on track time :-)
02-20-2003, 09:05 PM
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The best bang for the $ is a good set of chips. If you plan to run many DEs, I'll spend my money on handling first.
After chips you can do a turbo, MAF or MAP upgrade...
Enjoy the car
After chips you can do a turbo, MAF or MAP upgrade...
Enjoy the car
02-20-2003, 09:50 PM
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Rick,
I have a 1989 951 that it's heavily modified. I have my own custom chips, MAF and turbos as well as PiggyBack systems... If you like additional information, feel free to email me directly.
However, it's always good to check what's out there. For chips the APE V2.7, SR if you can find them... There are other chips out there but I have no experience with.
I have a 1989 951 that it's heavily modified. I have my own custom chips, MAF and turbos as well as PiggyBack systems... If you like additional information, feel free to email me directly.
However, it's always good to check what's out there. For chips the APE V2.7, SR if you can find them... There are other chips out there but I have no experience with.
02-20-2003, 09:58 PM
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Well, you can talk to my shrink! YOU'VE GOT TOO MANY SWEET CARS.
Now as for me, I just have too many cars, but I digress. . .
Lots of choices for tuners/chips but I've used Autothority, Steve R and Gurus chips and I believe and think the consensus on the boards is that Guru Racing is the best available for a chipset upgrade.
(What can I say, Danno & Travis have got game)
There are 4-5 differnt sources for MAF kits. If you go for the MAP approach Guru has the only kit out there that's MAP based.
I'm sure a lot of people will give you advice on this. Be leary of vendors who say their product is best - search archives for arguements re. these upgrades and you decide who's reasoning is the most sound.
Congrats and welcome
Now as for me, I just have too many cars, but I digress. . .
Lots of choices for tuners/chips but I've used Autothority, Steve R and Gurus chips and I believe and think the consensus on the boards is that Guru Racing is the best available for a chipset upgrade.
(What can I say, Danno & Travis have got game)
There are 4-5 differnt sources for MAF kits. If you go for the MAP approach Guru has the only kit out there that's MAP based.
I'm sure a lot of people will give you advice on this. Be leary of vendors who say their product is best - search archives for arguements re. these upgrades and you decide who's reasoning is the most sound.
Congrats and welcome
02-20-2003, 10:05 PM
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Well, you can talk to my shrink! YOU'VE GOT TOO MANY SWEET CARS.
Now as for me, I just have too many cars, but I digress. . .
Lots of choices for tuners/chips but I've used Autothority, Steve R and Gurus chips and I believe and think the consensus on the boards is that Guru Racing is the best available for a chipset upgrade.
(What can I say, Danno & Travis have got game)
There are 4-5 differnt sources for MAF kits. If you go for the MAP approach Guru has the only kit out there that's MAP based.
I'm sure a lot of people will give you advice on this. Be leary of vendors who say their product is best - search archives for arguements re. these upgrades and you decide who's reasoning is the most sound.
Congrats and welcome
Now as for me, I just have too many cars, but I digress. . .
Lots of choices for tuners/chips but I've used Autothority, Steve R and Gurus chips and I believe and think the consensus on the boards is that Guru Racing is the best available for a chipset upgrade.
(What can I say, Danno & Travis have got game)
There are 4-5 differnt sources for MAF kits. If you go for the MAP approach Guru has the only kit out there that's MAP based.
I'm sure a lot of people will give you advice on this. Be leary of vendors who say their product is best - search archives for arguements re. these upgrades and you decide who's reasoning is the most sound.
Congrats and welcome
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02-20-2003, 11:59 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Matt Sheppard:
<strong>
There are 4-5 differnt sources for MAF kits. If you go for the MAP approach Guru has the only kit out there that's MAP based.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">actually speedforce has one also and i think even huntley has one.
<strong>
There are 4-5 differnt sources for MAF kits. If you go for the MAP approach Guru has the only kit out there that's MAP based.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">actually speedforce has one also and i think even huntley has one.
02-21-2003, 02:20 AM
#9
Kokeln is also developing one that is getting the mapping finished up in the next week or so...
Regards,
Regards,
02-21-2003, 02:27 AM
#10
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"What's the best "bang for the buck" mods and what's the most logical order to buy these mods if I'm thinking about roughly $500-1500 every six months?"
While there's no one 'right' or 'best' solution for you, I can say that given your budget, we can definitely give you the best BANG for your dollar!
While there's no one 'right' or 'best' solution for you, I can say that given your budget, we can definitely give you the best BANG for your dollar!
02-21-2003, 08:49 AM
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14000 miles in not always a good thing. If this a car that has sat for long periods of time I would go through it carefully to ensure that there is no rot or cracking in the rubber/plastic lines. Sitting is not a good thing for cars. Although, having the great antiques that you have, I am sure you know that!
Before investing any money in the car you should map out your plans. Is this going to be a track only car?; is you plan to do club racing or just de? Many people purchase these cars and then start throwing money at them only to find that they purchased upgrades that cannot be added to. When they want to go to the next step, they find that they must throw away (ie. sell on ebay) their old parts. Speaking of, you might look there for old MAF's if that is where you want to start. Anyways, my 2c coming from a guy that has spent ~$15k on parts over the past 3 years on an 89 951 and never replaced anything but stock parts.
Before investing any money in the car you should map out your plans. Is this going to be a track only car?; is you plan to do club racing or just de? Many people purchase these cars and then start throwing money at them only to find that they purchased upgrades that cannot be added to. When they want to go to the next step, they find that they must throw away (ie. sell on ebay) their old parts. Speaking of, you might look there for old MAF's if that is where you want to start. Anyways, my 2c coming from a guy that has spent ~$15k on parts over the past 3 years on an 89 951 and never replaced anything but stock parts.
02-21-2003, 09:09 AM
#12
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Guru Racing is the best available for a chipset upgrade</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I change my Europroducts and a friend of mine change Superchips to GURU ones. They are the best chips you can get for 951.We are very satisfied for the results. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
02-21-2003, 10:35 AM
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Hi Rick,
If your serious about making a balanced and capable street/track car out of it... you should really consider adding power as the LAST thing to do. I honestly find having a car that can overpower the suspension and brakes is less stable, and hence less fun. I'd rather maximize all the other components, get the maximum speed that you can from the car, and THEN add power.
Starting with a 14K car can be great. You can avoid some of the costs of trying to get back to a perfect 'stock' condition. Are you sure your stock suspension is in perfect shape? (Bushings,shocks,etc?) You seem to have all the right safety equipment too, so that's a great start.
If so... here's what I would do (and am doing!)
1.) Extra wheels and DOT R tires. (wasting street tires is no fun, and very expensive) Using the stock forged TurboS wheels for race rubber is a great idea. Buy some pretty 17/18's for the street. ($1000-$1500)
2.) Run an aggressive brake pad/fluid (Porterfied R4, Pagid Orange, Hawk Blue). The stock TurboS S4 brakes, in perfect shape with proper race pads are awesome, well up to the task. ($250)
3.) With the stock M030 adjustable koni's, I think the only real problem is the lack of spring rate. This can be a bit tough to solve (due to the rear torsion bars). I'd switch the fronts to run a standard 2.25/2.5" coil(giving you unlimted spring rate selection) either run larger torsion bars in the rear, or run a 2.25" coilover/torsion bar combo in back (m030 968/Koni/Leda/etc). Many, many options are available for the suspension, depending on your budget. ($500 - $5000!)
4.) Now, with a great suspension setup and great brakes... comes the fun part. Add power. My .02c? Start with the oh-so-standard chip/boost control/testpipe combo (which will give you a tremendous bang-for-buck improvement, an easy 300hp and will improve the power delivery to boot). Stop. Enjoy the new-found power.
At this point you've pretty much maxed out the chassis/brakes/tires. From here on in, it starts to get very expensive to keep a balanced car.
5.) Beyond this point, the possibilities are limited by your budget. You want 500hp? You want incredable suspension with massive brakes? No problem, just whip out the check book
Anyways... hope this helps.
If your serious about making a balanced and capable street/track car out of it... you should really consider adding power as the LAST thing to do. I honestly find having a car that can overpower the suspension and brakes is less stable, and hence less fun. I'd rather maximize all the other components, get the maximum speed that you can from the car, and THEN add power.
Starting with a 14K car can be great. You can avoid some of the costs of trying to get back to a perfect 'stock' condition. Are you sure your stock suspension is in perfect shape? (Bushings,shocks,etc?) You seem to have all the right safety equipment too, so that's a great start.
If so... here's what I would do (and am doing!)
1.) Extra wheels and DOT R tires. (wasting street tires is no fun, and very expensive) Using the stock forged TurboS wheels for race rubber is a great idea. Buy some pretty 17/18's for the street. ($1000-$1500)
2.) Run an aggressive brake pad/fluid (Porterfied R4, Pagid Orange, Hawk Blue). The stock TurboS S4 brakes, in perfect shape with proper race pads are awesome, well up to the task. ($250)
3.) With the stock M030 adjustable koni's, I think the only real problem is the lack of spring rate. This can be a bit tough to solve (due to the rear torsion bars). I'd switch the fronts to run a standard 2.25/2.5" coil(giving you unlimted spring rate selection) either run larger torsion bars in the rear, or run a 2.25" coilover/torsion bar combo in back (m030 968/Koni/Leda/etc). Many, many options are available for the suspension, depending on your budget. ($500 - $5000!)
4.) Now, with a great suspension setup and great brakes... comes the fun part. Add power. My .02c? Start with the oh-so-standard chip/boost control/testpipe combo (which will give you a tremendous bang-for-buck improvement, an easy 300hp and will improve the power delivery to boot). Stop. Enjoy the new-found power.
At this point you've pretty much maxed out the chassis/brakes/tires. From here on in, it starts to get very expensive to keep a balanced car.
5.) Beyond this point, the possibilities are limited by your budget. You want 500hp? You want incredable suspension with massive brakes? No problem, just whip out the check book
Anyways... hope this helps.
02-21-2003, 11:00 AM
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Rick,
IF you are an inexperienced driver on the track, DO NOT go to competition type tire yet. You need to learn car control, street tires warn you sooner (less speed) and are more likely to recover. Having been a PCA, BMW... instructor for years, trust me on this one (your DE instructor will appreciate it as well). Again IF you are an inexperienced driver on the track, the extra HP will be a disadvantage as you'll rely on it more than your driving skills.
Decide what you want to do with the car (DE, Race,..?) Get the things that you can use for both, then worry about HP. Also when running higher boost on the track, plan on using some race fuel to mix with street fuel.
Suspension work is always nice but having a street/track car you'll be compromising.
Back to the HP issue. It's interesting how people claim having the "BEST" chips when they didn't try but a few. I wonder how people evaluate chips!
Again, I can set your car up to make over 400rwhp (MAF, Injectors & Turbo, I have done it years ago not just trying to make x-hp today). However, I think that a set of chips is the best bang for the $$$.
Spend the money on safety equipment at first (Helmet, gloves,.. fire system). Track time is the best improvement you can make, but I think you already know it.
IF you are an inexperienced driver on the track, DO NOT go to competition type tire yet. You need to learn car control, street tires warn you sooner (less speed) and are more likely to recover. Having been a PCA, BMW... instructor for years, trust me on this one (your DE instructor will appreciate it as well). Again IF you are an inexperienced driver on the track, the extra HP will be a disadvantage as you'll rely on it more than your driving skills.
Decide what you want to do with the car (DE, Race,..?) Get the things that you can use for both, then worry about HP. Also when running higher boost on the track, plan on using some race fuel to mix with street fuel.
Suspension work is always nice but having a street/track car you'll be compromising.
Back to the HP issue. It's interesting how people claim having the "BEST" chips when they didn't try but a few. I wonder how people evaluate chips!
Again, I can set your car up to make over 400rwhp (MAF, Injectors & Turbo, I have done it years ago not just trying to make x-hp today). However, I think that a set of chips is the best bang for the $$$.
Spend the money on safety equipment at first (Helmet, gloves,.. fire system). Track time is the best improvement you can make, but I think you already know it.
02-21-2003, 11:42 AM
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My €.02:
If you are serious about track/street, start with brakes and suspension.
Brakes: you could use specific pads for racing, (Pagid Orange is top for 951 IMO) and change them before after, or go for a bit less agressive street/track set-up. Go for ATE/Blue brake fluid. Get some additional brake cooling, in order not to fry your discs.
Suspension: For easy adaption, spend a bit more, and go for stuff like Protrac or Intrax, both with rear coil-over. Adjustable by a turn of a button, before and after the race. Also make it easy to change ride height and corner balance.
Renew all rubbers in the suspension/steering.
If money left: Change to Weltmeister or Kokeln adjustable sway bars
A good brakes/suspension package takes 10 sec of a 2 minute lap. The amount of money you spend on extra HP to do the same is much higher, and you never learn to drive properly.
Then add power..
Hans
If you are serious about track/street, start with brakes and suspension.
Brakes: you could use specific pads for racing, (Pagid Orange is top for 951 IMO) and change them before after, or go for a bit less agressive street/track set-up. Go for ATE/Blue brake fluid. Get some additional brake cooling, in order not to fry your discs.
Suspension: For easy adaption, spend a bit more, and go for stuff like Protrac or Intrax, both with rear coil-over. Adjustable by a turn of a button, before and after the race. Also make it easy to change ride height and corner balance.
Renew all rubbers in the suspension/steering.
If money left: Change to Weltmeister or Kokeln adjustable sway bars
A good brakes/suspension package takes 10 sec of a 2 minute lap. The amount of money you spend on extra HP to do the same is much higher, and you never learn to drive properly.
Then add power..
Hans