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02-19-2003, 09:22 PM
#1
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I'd like some feedback regarding a point my tech made with me today. First off, you must know he club races a STOCK '86 944 Turbo, and is a firm believer in a stock setup. He sees me gearing up for a GURU Stage 2 installation and wonders about all the money being spent on aftermarket bolt ons, when "only a given amount of air gets through the throttle body and the valves. Unless some serious head porting is done and the throttle body enlarged, you are wasting money." Somewhat out of context, but you get the idea.
Comments?
Comments?
02-19-2003, 09:30 PM
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Yep! Stock the '86 951 makes what? - 185 rwhp
With the Guru stage II, we see 260 rwhp - hmmmmm - you'll have to show him those dyno charts and maybe he'll change his tune
With the Guru stage II, we see 260 rwhp - hmmmmm - you'll have to show him those dyno charts and maybe he'll change his tune
02-19-2003, 09:42 PM
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Actually, I'd really like to see more of these 60-100 or 70-100 mph runs to get an idea of REAL WORLD performance measures. Dyno results can be argued with to a small degree [poor airflow through intercooler, cone filters, etc] but they're great for tuning. What he says is true for efficiency, but it seems the popular thing to do is run more boost that way you're forcing even more air through the throttle body and valves. 
I'm sure there's a point where those become detrimental to more horsepower, but that point is NOT 217 horsepower [nor 247].
I'm sure there's a point where those become detrimental to more horsepower, but that point is NOT 217 horsepower [nor 247].
02-19-2003, 09:58 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Phooz Busta:
Actually, I'd really like to see more of these 60-100 or 70-100 mph runs to get an idea of REAL WORLD performance measures. Dyno results can be argued with to a small degree [poor airflow through intercooler, cone filters, etc] but they're great for tuning. What he says is true for efficiency, but it seems the popular thing to do is run more boost that way you're forcing even more air through the throttle body and valves. I'm sure there's a point where those become detrimental to more horsepower, but that point is NOT 217 horsepower [nor 247].</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">True, but one way or the other, more HP and especially torque will result in better times just about anywhere, providing you don't change anything else. But the thing is, if you have say 300 ft. lbs. of torque available from 4 to 5K rpm, what good does it do? It's not so much the peak numbers but what the curves look like and how usable/available the power is. Your right though, the real world is the true test....
Actually, I'd really like to see more of these 60-100 or 70-100 mph runs to get an idea of REAL WORLD performance measures. Dyno results can be argued with to a small degree [poor airflow through intercooler, cone filters, etc] but they're great for tuning. What he says is true for efficiency, but it seems the popular thing to do is run more boost that way you're forcing even more air through the throttle body and valves.
I'm sure there's a point where those become detrimental to more horsepower, but that point is NOT 217 horsepower [nor 247].</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">True, but one way or the other, more HP and especially torque will result in better times just about anywhere, providing you don't change anything else. But the thing is, if you have say 300 ft. lbs. of torque available from 4 to 5K rpm, what good does it do? It's not so much the peak numbers but what the curves look like and how usable/available the power is. Your right though, the real world is the true test....
02-20-2003, 06:23 AM
#7
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Some more performance numbers our last run with the Stg.2 on the stock turbo (worn-out @ 194K-miles and bent axle <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) :
0-60: 4.85s
1/4-mile: 13.3s @ 115mph
This was done about a month ago with my big *** in the passenger seat. I should've brought my video camera.
With the GURU-364 turbo on the car, it's an absolute screamer running up to 90% duty-cycle on 65-lb/hr injectors.
However, I don't anticipate much better 0-60 times due to a little extra lag and a sudden hit at 3500rpm that will surely break the tires free. The 1/4-mile times will certainly improve by at least 0.5s and 10mph.
Pat, wait 'til your tech takes your car out for a test drive afterwards... he'll be ordering one of our kits too! <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
0-60: 4.85s
1/4-mile: 13.3s @ 115mph
This was done about a month ago with my big *** in the passenger seat. I should've brought my video camera.
With the GURU-364 turbo on the car, it's an absolute screamer running up to 90% duty-cycle on 65-lb/hr injectors.
However, I don't anticipate much better 0-60 times due to a little extra lag and a sudden hit at 3500rpm that will surely break the tires free. The 1/4-mile times will certainly improve by at least 0.5s and 10mph.
Pat, wait 'til your tech takes your car out for a test drive afterwards... he'll be ordering one of our kits too!
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
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02-20-2003, 03:45 PM
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Pat,
Your mechanic is correct.....EVENTUALLY the intake/head/valves/exhaust become the limiting factor.
But I would ask him if he knows what that flow level is....and at that max level, what horsepower rating has been achieved. If he does not know, then how can he throw stones.
Remember a turbo was invented to OVERCOME a naturally aspirated limitation. Why would he want to spend the extra money to BOLT ON a turbo like Porsche did on the 944?
My first dyno on my stock engine was 180 rwhp. With a couple of "Bolt On's" as your tech is fondly questioning, I am now at 275 rwhp. A substantial KICK IN THE BUTT improvement. And with the help in the near future from Danno @ Guru Racing, I hope to achieve 350 rwhp. All done without opening up the engine or machining a single part.
As the guys above stated, BELEIVE IN THE POWER OF THE BOLT ON.......can I get an AHMEN brotha's!
Your mechanic is correct.....EVENTUALLY the intake/head/valves/exhaust become the limiting factor.
But I would ask him if he knows what that flow level is....and at that max level, what horsepower rating has been achieved. If he does not know, then how can he throw stones.
Remember a turbo was invented to OVERCOME a naturally aspirated limitation. Why would he want to spend the extra money to BOLT ON a turbo like Porsche did on the 944?
My first dyno on my stock engine was 180 rwhp. With a couple of "Bolt On's" as your tech is fondly questioning, I am now at 275 rwhp. A substantial KICK IN THE BUTT improvement. And with the help in the near future from Danno @ Guru Racing, I hope to achieve 350 rwhp. All done without opening up the engine or machining a single part.
As the guys above stated, BELEIVE IN THE POWER OF THE BOLT ON.......can I get an AHMEN brotha's!
02-20-2003, 04:03 PM
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Danno
Big Reds, Big Bad Black 993, Big B.....Ruf, Ruf, nice avatar!
(Sorry in advance Michelle and others for this comment, I could not resist....I am a pig. Don't want to start another 1200 message post)
Big Reds, Big Bad Black 993, Big B.....Ruf, Ruf, nice avatar!
(Sorry in advance Michelle and others for this comment, I could not resist....I am a pig. Don't want to start another 1200 message post)
02-20-2003, 04:14 PM
#11
Hi, newby in the Turbo & S forum.
I am extremely impressed by the performance achieved with the Guru Racing chips (I had a quick ride in a '90 951 car "Guru equipped") but as soon as such improvement is done one question springs to my mind: how long do you expect the engine to offer the performance without suffering from reliability issues?
I know the 951 block and head are basically very strong - remarkably strong - and as such I suppose they can handle significant power increases for "a while", but can somebody tell me if any upgraded engine could last some 60,000 miles without blowing/suffering from excessive wear?
Thanks in advance.
I am extremely impressed by the performance achieved with the Guru Racing chips (I had a quick ride in a '90 951 car "Guru equipped") but as soon as such improvement is done one question springs to my mind: how long do you expect the engine to offer the performance without suffering from reliability issues?
I know the 951 block and head are basically very strong - remarkably strong - and as such I suppose they can handle significant power increases for "a while", but can somebody tell me if any upgraded engine could last some 60,000 miles without blowing/suffering from excessive wear?
Thanks in advance.
02-20-2003, 04:49 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by thom:
can somebody tell me if any upgraded engine could last some 60,000 miles without blowing/suffering from excessive wear?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Welcome to the forum <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" /> !
One of the thing s I've heard is that if Porsche could have given the 951 300 stock, they would have. This simply isn't true because it would have ouperformed the 911 in every way and how can you make a "lower model" that puts your flagship to shame?
What makes a big difference in how long things will last, stock or modified, is how you drive the car. Drag racing a 951 is a sure way to hurt it whereas they're well suited to open track and DE events and even autocross. As a daily driver, you can have increadible power and if you don't floor it, it will never break! But who goes and spends a couple grand on performance goodies and then drives like their mother is on board?? If you modify it, you've become a boost addict just like the rest of us
As far as blowing the engine, what usually happens is head gasket failure from excessive heat caused by a lean mixture at high throttle. This can be easily avoided if you don't run more than 1 BAR boost with the stock goodies (other than a set of chips) and stay away from lots of high throttle stuff. The 951 isn't terribly efficient above 5800 rpm anyway so there's no sense in revving the **** out of it like an import.
Like any car, preventative maintenance will save you big $$, but you'll need to do a little more of it with more HP. These things aren't Honda civic's so you have to keep an eye on things and fix 'em before they become a serious problem. Things like, "Well my timing belt has 160K miles on it and it's working fine" make me cringe.
Bottom line, sure you're engine will last a heck of a long time with 300 HP, but you'll have to be a little more aware to keep it up to speed.
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
can somebody tell me if any upgraded engine could last some 60,000 miles without blowing/suffering from excessive wear?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Welcome to the forum <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" /> !
One of the thing s I've heard is that if Porsche could have given the 951 300 stock, they would have. This simply isn't true because it would have ouperformed the 911 in every way and how can you make a "lower model" that puts your flagship to shame?
What makes a big difference in how long things will last, stock or modified, is how you drive the car. Drag racing a 951 is a sure way to hurt it whereas they're well suited to open track and DE events and even autocross. As a daily driver, you can have increadible power and if you don't floor it, it will never break! But who goes and spends a couple grand on performance goodies and then drives like their mother is on board?? If you modify it, you've become a boost addict just like the rest of us
As far as blowing the engine, what usually happens is head gasket failure from excessive heat caused by a lean mixture at high throttle. This can be easily avoided if you don't run more than 1 BAR boost with the stock goodies (other than a set of chips) and stay away from lots of high throttle stuff. The 951 isn't terribly efficient above 5800 rpm anyway so there's no sense in revving the **** out of it like an import.
Like any car, preventative maintenance will save you big $$, but you'll need to do a little more of it with more HP. These things aren't Honda civic's so you have to keep an eye on things and fix 'em before they become a serious problem. Things like, "Well my timing belt has 160K miles on it and it's working fine" make me cringe.
Bottom line, sure you're engine will last a heck of a long time with 300 HP, but you'll have to be a little more aware to keep it up to speed.
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
02-20-2003, 05:12 PM
#13
Thank you for your quick reply
I know what you mean with preventive maintenance; I guess most of us self-respecting 944 owners are all used to it and it certainly doesn't worry me.
What I would like to know is if you include what I call "major engine work" such as piston ringing, head surfacing - any job requiring stripping the engine down actually! - in the "preventive maintenance" or not...I don't really see myself dismantling the whole thing every 12,000 miles for example.
I know what you mean with preventive maintenance; I guess most of us self-respecting 944 owners are all used to it and it certainly doesn't worry me.
What I would like to know is if you include what I call "major engine work" such as piston ringing, head surfacing - any job requiring stripping the engine down actually! - in the "preventive maintenance" or not...I don't really see myself dismantling the whole thing every 12,000 miles for example.
02-20-2003, 05:29 PM
#14
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thom, i don't have guru chips but i've been running 18 psi of boost (which is more than what you run with the guru chips) on a stock block for 3 years. no problems other than a couple of oil leaks which in my experience happens with stock cars too.
02-20-2003, 05:46 PM
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thom,
Boy is that a loaded question. There are many books on that topic.
My question in responce would be....
If you added air, did you add fuel? If you added power (heat) did you add cooling? If you added RPM did you add strength.
If yes then yes to a degree.
You ask degree....
Will you drive it in short bursts of 1000 horsepower or flat out for 100 miles thru the Nevada desert on a 120 degree day at 400 horsepower.
Black (your question) becomes Grey (my responce).
A good tuner/builder can meet goals, power, reliability, drivability, econcony within reason. What is your reason?
Boy is that a loaded question. There are many books on that topic.
My question in responce would be....
If you added air, did you add fuel? If you added power (heat) did you add cooling? If you added RPM did you add strength.
If yes then yes to a degree.
You ask degree....
Will you drive it in short bursts of 1000 horsepower or flat out for 100 miles thru the Nevada desert on a 120 degree day at 400 horsepower.
Black (your question) becomes Grey (my responce).
A good tuner/builder can meet goals, power, reliability, drivability, econcony within reason. What is your reason?