Cure Garrett Turbo Oil Leaking Problem
04-09-2003, 02:55 PM
#16
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Just an observation on oversights by tuners: </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">dlr944,
You hit the nail on the head, this is my point exactly.
However, no one is perfect.
Porsche has recalls.
If we use this forum to discuss the unforeseen, the tuners listen and respond, we can really accomplish great things. I do appreciate John Anderson showing interest and voicing an oppinion.
We are modifying things after all. Guys that I have had contact with, like Lindsey Racing and Danno at Guru Racing are pushing the envelope by creating new and exciting things. We have to be careful not to be so harsh as to squelch this creativity. If so we will wind up just driving old cars.
So given the nature of modification, we are somewhat signing up to be beta testers. If that is not what you want, then let the tuner know you expect a trouble free product that has been time tested. It is their responsibility to honor that.
Beta testing on unknowing or unwilling customers and shoddy workmanship is unacceptable.
You hit the nail on the head, this is my point exactly.
However, no one is perfect.
Porsche has recalls.
If we use this forum to discuss the unforeseen, the tuners listen and respond, we can really accomplish great things. I do appreciate John Anderson showing interest and voicing an oppinion.
We are modifying things after all. Guys that I have had contact with, like Lindsey Racing and Danno at Guru Racing are pushing the envelope by creating new and exciting things. We have to be careful not to be so harsh as to squelch this creativity. If so we will wind up just driving old cars.
So given the nature of modification, we are somewhat signing up to be beta testers. If that is not what you want, then let the tuner know you expect a trouble free product that has been time tested. It is their responsibility to honor that.
Beta testing on unknowing or unwilling customers and shoddy workmanship is unacceptable.
04-09-2003, 03:58 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Seems to me a restricter will only increase the pressure. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I believe the physics of fluid dynamics is that the fluid will take the path of least resistance.
If a restricter was installed in the ONLY path, then total volume would be reduced with the byproduct of increased pressure.
Given multiple paths, as is the case in our engine, it should only reduce flow in the specified line.
I could be wrong.
This is why I refer to the PHD's and asked John to research.
If a restricter was installed in the ONLY path, then total volume would be reduced with the byproduct of increased pressure.
Given multiple paths, as is the case in our engine, it should only reduce flow in the specified line.
I could be wrong.
This is why I refer to the PHD's and asked John to research.
04-09-2003, 04:01 PM
#18
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When I rebuilt my engine last year I noted that the opening in the gasket from the balance shaft cover to the turbo was very small. It would have been difficult to get a tooth pick in that hole.
The turbo was a true Garrett with a cross over pipe designed to fit. Probably should have kept that setup. It did not smoke or leak oil. Don't remember what was done to the gasket. If it was like everything else from Bodymotion it had a large amount of orange silicone seal on it.
Alan C.
The turbo was a true Garrett with a cross over pipe designed to fit. Probably should have kept that setup. It did not smoke or leak oil. Don't remember what was done to the gasket. If it was like everything else from Bodymotion it had a large amount of orange silicone seal on it.
Alan C.
04-09-2003, 04:26 PM
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Alan,
Interesting. So what you observed seems to support what Anderson has concluded. Looks like we are on the right track here.
Anyone here with a background in fluid dynamics that can shed some light?
Anderson, want to be a hero?
Interesting. So what you observed seems to support what Anderson has concluded. Looks like we are on the right track here.
Anyone here with a background in fluid dynamics that can shed some light?
Anderson, want to be a hero?
04-09-2003, 04:41 PM
#20
Race Car
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by dlr944:
<strong>Very interesting... Seems to me a retrictor will only increase the pressure.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Who cares what the oil pressure is when passing through the restrictor. The restrictor 'restricts' oil volume from reaching the center section of the turbo where lubrication and pressure matter. Since the center section of the turbo is larger than the restrictor the oil pressure will go down when it reaches this area, except with the restrictor in place before it there will be less oil and less pressure on the turbo bearings.
I agree with what Bill suggests...there's probably an ideal range of oil pressure for the Garrett [and other turbo] center sections. It would be cool to work out the proper oil flow [and restrictor size] to get ideal pressure to lubricate the bearings. Great topic!
<strong>Very interesting... Seems to me a retrictor will only increase the pressure.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Who cares what the oil pressure is when passing through the restrictor. The restrictor 'restricts' oil volume from reaching the center section of the turbo where lubrication and pressure matter. Since the center section of the turbo is larger than the restrictor the oil pressure will go down when it reaches this area, except with the restrictor in place before it there will be less oil and less pressure on the turbo bearings.
I agree with what Bill suggests...there's probably an ideal range of oil pressure for the Garrett [and other turbo] center sections. It would be cool to work out the proper oil flow [and restrictor size] to get ideal pressure to lubricate the bearings. Great topic!
04-09-2003, 04:59 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
G96, why was a resctrictor plate needed for a k26/8 when that turbo is used in the Turbo S and was designed by Porsche to work with the amount of oil flow that it's given? Do you really think that Porsche didn't design it properly?
I dont know of any cars that came out of the factory with a smoking turbo, or that started to smoke before 50k miles.
If you had a Garret...sure...restrictor plate to bring it to 1 bar...but if you use a factory turbo I dont see a reason to restrict flow.
My 2 cents..
--Adrial
I dont know of any cars that came out of the factory with a smoking turbo, or that started to smoke before 50k miles.
If you had a Garret...sure...restrictor plate to bring it to 1 bar...but if you use a factory turbo I dont see a reason to restrict flow.
My 2 cents..
--Adrial
04-09-2003, 05:17 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Bill:
<strong>
This is a picture of the factory turbo mount. You can see a hole where the oil returns to the crank case. It is sealed with an o-ring.
This is a picture of the Garrett turbo. "WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?" This is the preverbial square peg in a round hole. The Garrett center section oil return hole is SQUARE and the base is narrower than the factory mount base.
This is the paper gasket that SFR installed in a lame attempt to seal the oil return area. You can see the imprint of the o-ring on the paper gasket and the arrows point to the areas where the MAJOR oil leak developed. Also a paper gasket is a poor selection in this area. The heat generated by the exhaust dried out the paper and made it brittle. This picture shows the gasket in place on the turbo/motor mount. The arrows point to the failed areas.
Problem. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">hello
why don't you use a wider paper gasket and leave the factory gasket out?
Or even if you use the factory gasket a wider papaer gasket would not let the oil going by.
why do you need to gaskets, the 930 and the s car go gasket?
Konstantin
<strong>
This is a picture of the factory turbo mount. You can see a hole where the oil returns to the crank case. It is sealed with an o-ring.
This is a picture of the Garrett turbo. "WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE?" This is the preverbial square peg in a round hole. The Garrett center section oil return hole is SQUARE and the base is narrower than the factory mount base.
This is the paper gasket that SFR installed in a lame attempt to seal the oil return area. You can see the imprint of the o-ring on the paper gasket and the arrows point to the areas where the MAJOR oil leak developed. Also a paper gasket is a poor selection in this area. The heat generated by the exhaust dried out the paper and made it brittle. This picture shows the gasket in place on the turbo/motor mount. The arrows point to the failed areas.
Problem. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">hello
why don't you use a wider paper gasket and leave the factory gasket out?
Or even if you use the factory gasket a wider papaer gasket would not let the oil going by.
why do you need to gaskets, the 930 and the s car go gasket?
Konstantin
04-09-2003, 05:24 PM
#23
Race Car
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by adrial:
<strong>G96, why was a resctrictor plate needed for a k26/8 when that turbo is used in the Turbo S and was designed by Porsche to work with the amount of oil flow that it's given? Do you really think that Porsche didn't design it properly?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">John already answered that question, go back and read his post.
Nobody is claiming to design things better than Porsche. There are other sources for turbo info out there which claim that turbos don't require a TON of oil for lubrication to keep cool. I'll sum up what John said...the KKK units have center sections built to tolerate high oil pressure, but that doesn't mean they need 5 BAR or that 5 BAR is best.
As long as my turbo was being installed, why not install the restrictor and try lubricating with less pressure? If there wasn't enough oil I'm sure the turbo would've burnt up pretty quickly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
<strong>G96, why was a resctrictor plate needed for a k26/8 when that turbo is used in the Turbo S and was designed by Porsche to work with the amount of oil flow that it's given? Do you really think that Porsche didn't design it properly?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">John already answered that question, go back and read his post.
Nobody is claiming to design things better than Porsche. There are other sources for turbo info out there which claim that turbos don't require a TON of oil for lubrication to keep cool. I'll sum up what John said...the KKK units have center sections built to tolerate high oil pressure, but that doesn't mean they need 5 BAR or that 5 BAR is best.
As long as my turbo was being installed, why not install the restrictor and try lubricating with less pressure? If there wasn't enough oil I'm sure the turbo would've burnt up pretty quickly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
04-09-2003, 06:18 PM
#24
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by PorscheG96:
Since the center section of the turbo is larger than the restrictor the oil pressure will go down when it reaches this area, except with the restrictor in place before it there will be less oil and less pressure on the turbo bearings.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Correct me if I am wrong. Based on the Bernoulli Equation pressure will increase and flow velocity will decrease after it passes through the restrictor.
Since the center section of the turbo is larger than the restrictor the oil pressure will go down when it reaches this area, except with the restrictor in place before it there will be less oil and less pressure on the turbo bearings.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Correct me if I am wrong. Based on the Bernoulli Equation pressure will increase and flow velocity will decrease after it passes through the restrictor.
04-09-2003, 06:44 PM
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Konstantin,
Paper is not good in a high heat environment, it dries, becomes brittle and you loose the seal.
The aluminum plate fabricated at S-CarGo is required because the Garrett base plate is narrower than the factory base plate. When installed the Garrett base plate will not completely cover the o-ring creating a leak. You can see this from the picture, as the paper gasket that SFR installed on my turbo setup exactly matches the Garrett base plate. By using a wider paper gasket the oil pressure would simply push the paper out of its way as it heads for my garage floor. So the aluminum plate covers the o-ring and then provides a flat surface for the 911 gasket. Everything sealed.
Paper is not good in a high heat environment, it dries, becomes brittle and you loose the seal.
The aluminum plate fabricated at S-CarGo is required because the Garrett base plate is narrower than the factory base plate. When installed the Garrett base plate will not completely cover the o-ring creating a leak. You can see this from the picture, as the paper gasket that SFR installed on my turbo setup exactly matches the Garrett base plate. By using a wider paper gasket the oil pressure would simply push the paper out of its way as it heads for my garage floor. So the aluminum plate covers the o-ring and then provides a flat surface for the 911 gasket. Everything sealed.
04-09-2003, 07:11 PM
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dlr944,
"I see said the blind man"
By installing a restricter, you only reduce flow. Irregardless, in a closed system the pressure should remain constant.
And if Johns theory that it is the oil pressure that is overcoming the Garrett ball bearing, then
a restricter would not work. You need to somehow reduce the pressure to the bearing (not flow) or create a better bearing seal. The latter not helping people with this problem.
The latest issue of excellence has an article about oil coolers. They made mention that people who retrofitted early 911's with an aftermarket cooler often blew them up. This was due to Porsches high oil pressure. 5 bar = 72 psi (A small block chevy runs 45 psi and 60 psi with performance pumps). And when cold, it goes even higher. Porsche installed a thermostic oil cooler bypass to keep the high pressure, cold oil, from the cooler.
The one saving factor here is that my turbo only LEAKED oil, it does not burn oil.
"I see said the blind man"
By installing a restricter, you only reduce flow. Irregardless, in a closed system the pressure should remain constant.
And if Johns theory that it is the oil pressure that is overcoming the Garrett ball bearing, then
a restricter would not work. You need to somehow reduce the pressure to the bearing (not flow) or create a better bearing seal. The latter not helping people with this problem.
The latest issue of excellence has an article about oil coolers. They made mention that people who retrofitted early 911's with an aftermarket cooler often blew them up. This was due to Porsches high oil pressure. 5 bar = 72 psi (A small block chevy runs 45 psi and 60 psi with performance pumps). And when cold, it goes even higher. Porsche installed a thermostic oil cooler bypass to keep the high pressure, cold oil, from the cooler.
The one saving factor here is that my turbo only LEAKED oil, it does not burn oil.
04-09-2003, 08:16 PM
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@Bill
did you had this problem from teh beginning?
I know some 951 with this turbo using the original seal from garet but without the Porsche ring seal. it seems that this is enough. The inner part of the ring (just between the hole and the stock ring) is small about4 mm but it seals ok till now. This is for about 3000 km and full boost.
Did you have the problem only at high boost, or also at idle, did you try without the Porsche seal ring and only the stock Garret gasket?
Konstantin
did you had this problem from teh beginning?
I know some 951 with this turbo using the original seal from garet but without the Porsche ring seal. it seems that this is enough. The inner part of the ring (just between the hole and the stock ring) is small about4 mm but it seals ok till now. This is for about 3000 km and full boost.
Did you have the problem only at high boost, or also at idle, did you try without the Porsche seal ring and only the stock Garret gasket?
Konstantin
04-09-2003, 08:35 PM
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Great feedback everyone...thyanks!
As for G96's 968, when I drilled and tapped his balance shaft cover, there was no real way to avoid over drilling all the way thru the cover to get enough Tap into the whole for threading, so what I was left with was a larger hole than stock. Now, bringing what Bill said in one of his posts to the table, about path of least reistance, I knew that hole would provide way to much oil, so I introduced a restriction in the line.
Now , as another lister posted about the diameter of the oil feed hole in the balance shaft cover, I'm holdong a stocker cover in my hand, and its much bigger than was explained to him. Not only could you get a toothpick thru it with ease, but it looks as if a pencil might be able to pass, well a thin pencil anyway..its darn near 1/4" in size.
No as far as pressure and flow go...try a simpl trick...take two garden hoses, from the same faucet, same flow and pressure...now each hose will attempt to fill a 50 gallon drum, ACCEPT, one of the hoses will have a restrictor at the end reducing its size to 1/4", the other hose flows freely. The restricted hose will produce much large pressure at the trestrictor, but which hose will fill the drum faster? The free flowing hose with less pressure at the opening will. Try it with a stop watch and see for yourself.
Its not about stoping pressure to the center section, its about reducing the volume of oil. Higher pressure does not mean higher volume (from the same source).
Bill, I will call Garrett, not that they will halt the production line for me, but maybe I can get some feedback on this issue. I have already talked with majestic, and they agree, Kevin (from majestic) has also used the restrictor in many applications.
Take Care!
As for G96's 968, when I drilled and tapped his balance shaft cover, there was no real way to avoid over drilling all the way thru the cover to get enough Tap into the whole for threading, so what I was left with was a larger hole than stock. Now, bringing what Bill said in one of his posts to the table, about path of least reistance, I knew that hole would provide way to much oil, so I introduced a restriction in the line.
Now , as another lister posted about the diameter of the oil feed hole in the balance shaft cover, I'm holdong a stocker cover in my hand, and its much bigger than was explained to him. Not only could you get a toothpick thru it with ease, but it looks as if a pencil might be able to pass, well a thin pencil anyway..its darn near 1/4" in size.
No as far as pressure and flow go...try a simpl trick...take two garden hoses, from the same faucet, same flow and pressure...now each hose will attempt to fill a 50 gallon drum, ACCEPT, one of the hoses will have a restrictor at the end reducing its size to 1/4", the other hose flows freely. The restricted hose will produce much large pressure at the trestrictor, but which hose will fill the drum faster? The free flowing hose with less pressure at the opening will. Try it with a stop watch and see for yourself.
Its not about stoping pressure to the center section, its about reducing the volume of oil. Higher pressure does not mean higher volume (from the same source).
Bill, I will call Garrett, not that they will halt the production line for me, but maybe I can get some feedback on this issue. I have already talked with majestic, and they agree, Kevin (from majestic) has also used the restrictor in many applications.
Take Care!
04-09-2003, 09:57 PM
#29
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John,
Thanks for promising to send me one of your restrictors for a trial on my Garrett Hybrid turbo. My turbo blows a ton of oil at high boost. After going back to my car to look at the oil feed line, I see that the top of the turbo has a plate with two bolts connecting the oil line. As I recall, the balance shaft side simply screws on to the balance shaft cover. Now where exactly does the restrictor go ? Is it at the balance shaft or the top of the turbo under the plate. Thanks again John !!
Thanks for promising to send me one of your restrictors for a trial on my Garrett Hybrid turbo. My turbo blows a ton of oil at high boost. After going back to my car to look at the oil feed line, I see that the top of the turbo has a plate with two bolts connecting the oil line. As I recall, the balance shaft side simply screws on to the balance shaft cover. Now where exactly does the restrictor go ? Is it at the balance shaft or the top of the turbo under the plate. Thanks again John !!
04-09-2003, 10:04 PM
#30
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Hi David,
No problem, thank you for calling!
As for the restrictor, its actually on the turbo, topside, under the oil feed plate that is held on by two 13mm bolts. Remove the feed from the top of the turbo, and it should already be threaded. please call me to inform me ok?
Take Care!
No problem, thank you for calling!
As for the restrictor, its actually on the turbo, topside, under the oil feed plate that is held on by two 13mm bolts. Remove the feed from the top of the turbo, and it should already be threaded. please call me to inform me ok?
Take Care!