superloaf

ok, so i have a 951 and i always thought the brakes were quite good. oh, i know, big blacks would be better but i have never thought they lacked any power. i have even upgraded to SS lines which made the pedal literally rock hard and i have porterfield R4S pads on it and ate superblue fluid so i figure my brakes should be about as good as the OEM brakes can be.

ok, all good and fine until i did some porsche driving events and felt what the brakes in a new 911 or even a panamera are like. with a pro driver, the initial bite from the panamera and even the cayenne is literally violent. even some mercedes amg cars i recently drove had breathtaking brakes.

well, i know everything has only gotten better over the last 25 years but am i missing something here? are modern brakes that much better or are they simply more assisted? that to me seems the biggest difference, in that no matter how hard i initially press the pedal in my 951, the brakes only grab so hard and never with the strength of the previously mentioned cars.

just curious what you guys think as i'm sure many of you might even own a modern performance car or maybe even a 997, boxster, etc which you might compare and give your thoughts.

many thanks

Crackership

I'm not sure what exactly it is that makes modern performance brakes so intense, but what I do know is that it is possible to make an older system (like the one on our cars) perform on par with modern performance brakes. The stock brakes on my Alfa are at least a little better than the brakes on a 944 NA, but not as good as the brakes on a 951. However, Girodisc makes a brake kit for the GTV6 and Milano and I've driven cars equipped with it, and it's absolutely amazing. It's that same intense, violent, you-better-be-ready-for-it-or-you'll-faceplant-into-the-steering-wheel kind of braking force you're talking about. AND, they fit under 15" wheels!

I've been kicking the idea around of contacting them thru the local shop, Group 2, that actually commissioned the production of the GTV6/Milano kit (you can actually see the "G2" logo on the calipers in the pic on Girodisc's website) and ask what kind of commitment it would take to commission a kit for the 951. They're a floating hat rotor, so I can't imagine that it would be too difficult to accommodate the '86/Everything else discrepancies.

I don't know if there would be much of an interest though, they're rather expensive ~$3k for a full set, and the big reds/blacks option is tried and true... but I'd readily venture a guess that a Girodisc kit would out-perform a set of big reds/blacks, and those of us with Fuchs wouldn't have to ditch them for bigger brakes.

Oddjob

The new cars will have somewhat larger diameter rotors, and somewhat larger pad surface and caliper piston area, so can generate more stopping power. But braking has a lot to do w/ tire stick and pad compound.

If you want your car to stop violently, use a compound w/ a much higher coefficient of friction. You are talking track events (?), but the porterfield R4S is a street compound. You are giving up a lot of stopping power by using a weak pad. Use an agressive track pad like a pagid black or hawk DTC60 or 70 (or equivalent PFC) and you will notice a significant difference in braking power. Then your tires will be the limiting factor. What are you running for tires?

jerome951

^^^^ What Jim said.

Some newer cars also have emergency braking features, so when you abruptly lift off the gas and apply the brakes hard, it increases the brake force to aid panic stops.

Also, braking technique may make the brakes feel 'violent'. A hard initial stab which quickly shifts weight to the front makes the car feel like it's slowing faster than it really is. In a track event, this isn't necessarily what you want.

zentrose

Hey, I owned a 944 s2 with the smaller brembos. I recently bought an 89 944 turbo with the bigger brembos. There is a significant difference in brake pedal feel. The 89 evokes an extremely powerful response when you stab the pedal in comparison to my s2.

With that said. Pad choices, fluid and tires go a long way with braking performance. I have played with pads, rotors, and fluids on my past cars and while you can make most cars stop fast, nothing I've owned comes close to the powerful FEEL of the brakes on the 89. It takes your breath away. I LOVE IT

TexasRider

I am not an expert, but I did ask an expert who should know, this same question about putting the Big Blacks on my 951.

I asked Sam Shahala who owned ProTechnik here (previously he owned it) and who has raced many times in the Rolex 24 Hours etc.

He said while it may be an imrovement it was small. He further added that if "you are racing the 24 Hours then you will need all that and more. If you are running the high banks at 180 mph you will need all that and more."

So I left mine and added the new Pagid pads, new rotors, ATE Blue, and the RE 11's.

During a recent track day my buddies new Subuaru brakes were beyond boiling and blistered. His brake temps were 600F and his rotors shot. My Porsche was down around 300 F.


Depending upon the lap he might have been faster. I was having to fight a bit as my head was jammed againist the liner in my 951 and on session 2, 3, 4, was having some idle and drop off issues. But overall my car brakes were good.

I was defintiely hitting some faster speeds into the corners when he had no pedal . I was able to brake in there hard with some 350Z's. So I think it was good.
I did have excellent pedal feel and although I had some brief lock ups I could feel it coming and get off the brakes. Another new car blistered 2 of his tires and had to stop.

clangjr

Braking has a lot to do with the weight of the vehicle as well.

gmsracing

My Cayman S, which comes with the brakes off of a 996, are substantially better than my old '86 951's brakes. Better fade resistance, better feel, better bite, and better balance. They are just better!

Reimu

I wish the lexus/cayenne/etc brake conversions that are talked about on the hybrid boards would catch on here

Olli Snellman

Newer models use Brembo Monoblock style calipers. This caliper type gives some advantage over older style. Older style caliper do wrap a bit when you brake hard. Also stainless guide plates might be wrapped, which cause pads to stuck. There might also be some water in brake fluid which cause pistons to stuck. If older style calipers are in very good condition and if you use good pads, rotors are good; then 951 should stop as good as newer models. Most added value what newer models offer are better electric systems on their brake systems.

rlm328

The stock brakes on a 951 are pretty good and for most cases they are more than adequate. With the Big Blacks and 996 TT systems what you get are bigger rotorswhich disipate the heat more rapidly, ergo if yu are on a twisty windy track with lots of braking you will not reach the fade point as early. I have the 996 TT calipers on my car and the 330mm discs. While my pad wear may be the same I have run with the same discs for 3 years now. I am just now developing heat stress cracks.

schip43

Hey the new 370Z does that! I found it to be a PIA myself!