Guru Map Kit / General Link Questions
12-05-2002, 01:29 AM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Modesto, CA
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guru Map Kit / General Link Questions
I just recently found out that we can't use the PC Software to program the AFMLink. Although, it does have datalogging, which is a benefit.
I'm considering going to the Link 1 Engine Management System. It's $850, but has quite a few more features. Boost Control, programming via a laptop, etc.... The major advantage seems to be self-tune with a Lamda. I was told a month they are bringing out a Wideband kit that will run in closed loop and automatically tune the fuel maps to your requirements. I know the more expensive systems have this feature, but I haven't seen it in a sub-$1000 system.
<a href="http://www.link-electro-usa.com/home.html" target="_blank">http://www.link-electro-usa.com/home.html</a>
Another note is that the AFMLink is discontinued according to Link. I'm not sure if that will be a drawback or not. Travis and Dan seem to be pretty good with support, so it might not even matter.
Anyone have any experience with these systems? What about the $560 TurboLink system? I don't think that is designed for ditching the AFM, but I could be wrong.
Travis, Danno? Any experience with the Link 1?
-Matt
I'm considering going to the Link 1 Engine Management System. It's $850, but has quite a few more features. Boost Control, programming via a laptop, etc.... The major advantage seems to be self-tune with a Lamda. I was told a month they are bringing out a Wideband kit that will run in closed loop and automatically tune the fuel maps to your requirements. I know the more expensive systems have this feature, but I haven't seen it in a sub-$1000 system.
<a href="http://www.link-electro-usa.com/home.html" target="_blank">http://www.link-electro-usa.com/home.html</a>
Another note is that the AFMLink is discontinued according to Link. I'm not sure if that will be a drawback or not. Travis and Dan seem to be pretty good with support, so it might not even matter.
Anyone have any experience with these systems? What about the $560 TurboLink system? I don't think that is designed for ditching the AFM, but I could be wrong.
Travis, Danno? Any experience with the Link 1?
-Matt
12-05-2002, 02:13 AM
#2
Race Director
Shhhh.... we're testing one right now...
Here's some background information that may straighten out the family history behind the Link product line.
AFM-LINK (1st generation)
--------------------------------
This product was introduced way back in the early-'90s as an AFM-AirFlowMeter replacement. Using a built-in 2.5-bar MAP-sensor with intelligent digital electronics (revolutionary for the time), it computes an output that closely resembles the voltage-response curve of an AFM. However, this unit was complicated to program because you needed to specify esoteric settings such as rising- or diving AFM, the minimum voltage, maximum voltage, shape of curve, MAP-equation, manifold-pressure range, etc. (sounds a lot like digital-MAF huh?)
As you can imagine, very few backyard home-mechanics would have the technical knowledge to successfully implement such an upgrade. The tech support overhead was an immense burden on Link. This is one of the reasons they had discontinued the product. Then GURU Racing came along... (we actually bought one of the very last units in the U.S.)
AFM-LINK (2nd generation)
--------------------------------
With the sudden renewed interest in the AFM-Link product by several groups (coincidence?), Link-NZ decided to revive the product with some enhancements. Gone are the old mathematical models for computing an air-flow signal. Replacing it was a 3D reference table (load vs. RPM -> air-flow signal) that delivered the exact response curve as the stock 951 AFM. In fact, that's how the table was generated, by meticulously datalogging a stock 951 AFM unit at each and every single possible data-point on the DME's 3D map.
This datalogging and 3D-table allowed this 2nd-generation AFM-Link box to directly replace the 951's AFM with zero adjustments of the air-flow signal necessary, it's already spot-on. You're not trying to intercept and massage a signal from some non-compatible sensor to mimic an AFM flow-signal. The data generated by this AFM-Link is identical. Thus, no skewing of the look-up point on the chip occurs. Therefore, we were able to focus our attention on developing the highest-performing 951-chipset to date. As you can deduce, this box will only work on a 951 and no other car on this planet.
The 2nd-generation AFM-Link box is and will continuted to be manufactured by Link Electrosystems as long as the demand warrants it. However, it is not available to the general public to purchase directly (thus the website's reference to its discontinuation). It is only available through dealers, retailers and tuners. It's also implied by Link that this unit should be sold in a value-added bundle. This is one reason why we do not sell the box by itself. Without matching chips, an intake pipe and misc. other goodies like air-temp sensor and FPR, it's really useless and would force each and every purchaser to replicate our R&D program on their own (dyno, fine-tune, repeat as necessary).
LINK-1 EFI (1st-generation)
-----------------------------------
This is the generic box you see on the Link website. It was a great value for the money. Similar to the generic AFM-Link box, the Link-1's generic nature required a lengthy installation and set-up process...
LINK-1 EFI (2nd-generation)
-----------------------------------
Like the evolution into the 2nd-generation of the AFM-Link unit, we've been working closely with Link in making this next Link-1 EFI system a 951-specific product. Having as much data pre-programmed as possible will allow the unit to function right out of the box with minimal set-up time. Things like MAP-sensor range, TPS-range, air/water-temp sensor signals, crank triggers, etc. will be hard-coded with the 951's data.
This 2nd-generation box will also be PC-programmable (1st-gen. could only use the Link Tuning Module). Additional features have been added such an auto-tune function to magically populate the fuel maps based upon O2-sensor feedback. It can use the normal narrow-band switch-type sensor or the upcoming wide-band unit.
We're going to be testing this unit to verify that Link-NZ has programmed the box close enough to 951-specs that it will be satisfactory. Until we finish this testing, there will be no 951-specific LINK-1 systems to buy from ANYONE. No Tim, you aren't forced to buy it from Huntley exclusively either. We will be retailing this unit with pre-programmed fuel & igniton maps, bundled with required accessories like MAP-sensors, air-temp sensors and serial-adaptors for a significant discount under the $1900 base-price you've seen... heh, heh...
BTW, in addition we will be offering a GURU-exclusive version of the Link-1 box, a true plug & play unit that plugs directly in to the stock harness. That's right, rip out the DME & KLR and plug ours in, simple, eh?
Here's some background information that may straighten out the family history behind the Link product line.
AFM-LINK (1st generation)
--------------------------------
This product was introduced way back in the early-'90s as an AFM-AirFlowMeter replacement. Using a built-in 2.5-bar MAP-sensor with intelligent digital electronics (revolutionary for the time), it computes an output that closely resembles the voltage-response curve of an AFM. However, this unit was complicated to program because you needed to specify esoteric settings such as rising- or diving AFM, the minimum voltage, maximum voltage, shape of curve, MAP-equation, manifold-pressure range, etc. (sounds a lot like digital-MAF huh?)
As you can imagine, very few backyard home-mechanics would have the technical knowledge to successfully implement such an upgrade. The tech support overhead was an immense burden on Link. This is one of the reasons they had discontinued the product. Then GURU Racing came along... (we actually bought one of the very last units in the U.S.)
AFM-LINK (2nd generation)
--------------------------------
With the sudden renewed interest in the AFM-Link product by several groups (coincidence?), Link-NZ decided to revive the product with some enhancements. Gone are the old mathematical models for computing an air-flow signal. Replacing it was a 3D reference table (load vs. RPM -> air-flow signal) that delivered the exact response curve as the stock 951 AFM. In fact, that's how the table was generated, by meticulously datalogging a stock 951 AFM unit at each and every single possible data-point on the DME's 3D map.
This datalogging and 3D-table allowed this 2nd-generation AFM-Link box to directly replace the 951's AFM with zero adjustments of the air-flow signal necessary, it's already spot-on. You're not trying to intercept and massage a signal from some non-compatible sensor to mimic an AFM flow-signal. The data generated by this AFM-Link is identical. Thus, no skewing of the look-up point on the chip occurs. Therefore, we were able to focus our attention on developing the highest-performing 951-chipset to date. As you can deduce, this box will only work on a 951 and no other car on this planet.
The 2nd-generation AFM-Link box is and will continuted to be manufactured by Link Electrosystems as long as the demand warrants it. However, it is not available to the general public to purchase directly (thus the website's reference to its discontinuation). It is only available through dealers, retailers and tuners. It's also implied by Link that this unit should be sold in a value-added bundle. This is one reason why we do not sell the box by itself. Without matching chips, an intake pipe and misc. other goodies like air-temp sensor and FPR, it's really useless and would force each and every purchaser to replicate our R&D program on their own (dyno, fine-tune, repeat as necessary).
LINK-1 EFI (1st-generation)
-----------------------------------
This is the generic box you see on the Link website. It was a great value for the money. Similar to the generic AFM-Link box, the Link-1's generic nature required a lengthy installation and set-up process...
LINK-1 EFI (2nd-generation)
-----------------------------------
Like the evolution into the 2nd-generation of the AFM-Link unit, we've been working closely with Link in making this next Link-1 EFI system a 951-specific product. Having as much data pre-programmed as possible will allow the unit to function right out of the box with minimal set-up time. Things like MAP-sensor range, TPS-range, air/water-temp sensor signals, crank triggers, etc. will be hard-coded with the 951's data.
This 2nd-generation box will also be PC-programmable (1st-gen. could only use the Link Tuning Module). Additional features have been added such an auto-tune function to magically populate the fuel maps based upon O2-sensor feedback. It can use the normal narrow-band switch-type sensor or the upcoming wide-band unit.
We're going to be testing this unit to verify that Link-NZ has programmed the box close enough to 951-specs that it will be satisfactory. Until we finish this testing, there will be no 951-specific LINK-1 systems to buy from ANYONE. No Tim, you aren't forced to buy it from Huntley exclusively either. We will be retailing this unit with pre-programmed fuel & igniton maps, bundled with required accessories like MAP-sensors, air-temp sensors and serial-adaptors for a significant discount under the $1900 base-price you've seen... heh, heh...
BTW, in addition we will be offering a GURU-exclusive version of the Link-1 box, a true plug & play unit that plugs directly in to the stock harness. That's right, rip out the DME & KLR and plug ours in, simple, eh?
12-05-2002, 03:12 AM
#3
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Modesto, CA
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote]Originally posted by Danno:
BTW, in addition we will be offering a GURU-exclusive version of the Link-1 box, a true plug & play unit that plugs directly in to the stock harness. That's right, rip out the DME & KLR and plug ours in, simple, eh? <hr></blockquote>
I wish I would have known this before I dropped 1200 + 250 for the programmer on the AFMLink Map kit.
Interested to see what happens though...
-Matt
BTW, in addition we will be offering a GURU-exclusive version of the Link-1 box, a true plug & play unit that plugs directly in to the stock harness. That's right, rip out the DME & KLR and plug ours in, simple, eh? <hr></blockquote>
I wish I would have known this before I dropped 1200 + 250 for the programmer on the AFMLink Map kit.
Interested to see what happens though...
-Matt
12-05-2002, 03:43 AM
#4
Race Director
No worries Matt, we're getting identical performance from our MAP kits as the car with the EFI system. That's because engine-management is really pretty simple:
1. measure engine-RPM
2. measure or compute air-flow going into engine
3. open injectors the long enough to meter fuel to match current air-flow (the timing doesn't even matter)
4. light off the spark at the optimal time for maxmimum power
That's it! All other 'features' of EFI systems are time-savings and convenience things that aid in tuning, but don't actually yield performance benefits. There was even a university project where they converted a GameBoy console toy into an engine-management system.
1. measure engine-RPM
2. measure or compute air-flow going into engine
3. open injectors the long enough to meter fuel to match current air-flow (the timing doesn't even matter)
4. light off the spark at the optimal time for maxmimum power
That's it! All other 'features' of EFI systems are time-savings and convenience things that aid in tuning, but don't actually yield performance benefits. There was even a university project where they converted a GameBoy console toy into an engine-management system.
12-05-2002, 04:26 AM
#5
Instructor
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Moscow
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very good news !!!
I hope you will offer the Link + with DIS or Wasted Spark ignition system to get rid of our ugly distributor cap and trigger....
Good Luck
Nicolas
Danno : I am still awaiting the PayPal registration...Hope to get it in 2-3 days
I hope you will offer the Link + with DIS or Wasted Spark ignition system to get rid of our ugly distributor cap and trigger....
Good Luck
Nicolas
Danno : I am still awaiting the PayPal registration...Hope to get it in 2-3 days
12-05-2002, 09:37 AM
#7
Race Director
Yes distributor-less ignition is definitely an option with coil-packs. The Link-2 will also offer sequential ignition with no wasted spark for the most coil dwell time and hottest spark possible.
Also no MAP-sensors that I know of comes with an air-temp sensor. That's because the MAP-sensor's vacuum line is a dead-end path, no air is actually flowing, just pushing on the sensor. To accurately measure air-temp, the sensor needs to be in the intake air-stream itself. That's why we have our air-temp sensor mounted in the J-pipe. Pretty convenient location because we can just plug it straight into the stock harness.
Also no MAP-sensors that I know of comes with an air-temp sensor. That's because the MAP-sensor's vacuum line is a dead-end path, no air is actually flowing, just pushing on the sensor. To accurately measure air-temp, the sensor needs to be in the intake air-stream itself. That's why we have our air-temp sensor mounted in the J-pipe. Pretty convenient location because we can just plug it straight into the stock harness.
Trending Topics
12-05-2002, 04:47 PM
#9
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh man, this is way cool! I like the idea of more or less doing away with the 1989 electronics and swapping them in for new stuff. So much smarter and more daily driveable.
Danno, would it be worth it to wait off on a MAP upgrade until this new unit becomes available?? Will this system be integrated into the new GURU-364 kit?
Like everyone, I patiently await the reslease of these wonder-boxes!
Danno, would it be worth it to wait off on a MAP upgrade until this new unit becomes available?? Will this system be integrated into the new GURU-364 kit?
Like everyone, I patiently await the reslease of these wonder-boxes!
12-05-2002, 05:16 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 1,596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote]Originally posted by Danno:
<strong>BTW, in addition we will be offering a GURU-exclusive version of the Link-1 box, a true plug & play unit that plugs directly in to the stock harness. That's right, rip out the DME & KLR and plug ours in, simple, eh?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Danno, where were you when I needed this last year???
<strong>BTW, in addition we will be offering a GURU-exclusive version of the Link-1 box, a true plug & play unit that plugs directly in to the stock harness. That's right, rip out the DME & KLR and plug ours in, simple, eh?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Danno, where were you when I needed this last year???
12-05-2002, 05:30 PM
#11
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Reading PA
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And now that the cat is out of the bag I can say I have ben quietly and patiently waiting for this to come out Just annoying Danno every now and again 
to try to find out when I can get one. I hope the testing goes well <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
Just annoying Danno every now and again to try to find out when I can get one. I hope the testing goes well <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
12-05-2002, 06:11 PM
#12
Racer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Modesto, CA
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote]Originally posted by tazman:
<strong>And now that the cat is out of the bag I can say I have ben quietly and patiently waiting for this to come out Just annoying Danno every now and again to try to find out when I can get one. I hope the testing goes well <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Once again I'll say it would have been nice if those of us buying MAP kits would have been told of this possibility.
The closed-loop wideband, laptop software, extended datalogging, etc....
-Matt
<strong>And now that the cat is out of the bag I can say I have ben quietly and patiently waiting for this to come out
Just annoying Danno every now and again to try to find out when I can get one. I hope the testing goes well <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>Once again I'll say it would have been nice if those of us buying MAP kits would have been told of this possibility.
The closed-loop wideband, laptop software, extended datalogging, etc....
-Matt
12-05-2002, 07:29 PM
#13
Three Wheelin'
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Reading PA
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Danno was worried about other tuners finding out which I guess some did anyway. The way I found out is because I was looking to buy an EFI system and asked him about the Link+ that I saw on Links website.
12-05-2002, 08:01 PM
#14
Racer
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Fullerton, CA
Posts: 281
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AEM makes a really nice 'plug in' programmable engine management system. I've used it on a Toyota Supra. From hardware to software, very well done. If anything, its overkill - you've got about 100 different variables to adjust if you want to. It also controls the turbo too, which is nice. Considering a complete system runs about 1300-1500, its a great deal when compared to other standalone systems. To bad its not available for our cars yet.
I talked to an engineer at AEM, he said that the market(Porsche) wasn't big enough to justify the development yet, but that they would have it ready in a couple of years. Maybe if we all bugged them, we could change their mind.
Here's the product page:
<a href="http://www.aempower.com/ems.htm" target="_blank">http://www.aempower.com/ems.htm</a>
-Sean
I talked to an engineer at AEM, he said that the market(Porsche) wasn't big enough to justify the development yet, but that they would have it ready in a couple of years. Maybe if we all bugged them, we could change their mind.
Here's the product page:
<a href="http://www.aempower.com/ems.htm" target="_blank">http://www.aempower.com/ems.htm</a>
-Sean
