How much HP do you want?
02-10-2003, 11:19 PM
#31
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Fast951,
I personally would love to see that dyno sheet with my car. A touch more info and a price tag would be appreciated, tho I realize I may be asking a bit prematurely.
I personally would love to see that dyno sheet with my car. A touch more info and a price tag would be appreciated, tho I realize I may be asking a bit prematurely.
02-11-2003, 12:39 AM
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Going off the dyno sheet, he's running about 25psi. Max torque at 4500, HP about 5700. He's also pretty laggy with the power picking up about 3700rpm.
Impressive chart none the less. Definately a track car. For the street, the lag would make it no fun.
330 to the wheels (reliably) is my target, and I think it will be pleanty for a reasonable street car. I had 280 on my last setup and it was quick. The K26/8 I used ran out of gas, and the stock injecors were maxed out.
$2500 for the new setup to get 330? No. Chips, fuel, turbo, exhaust, hard pipes, and on and on. I would say I have about $4k into the goodies to make the power.
Just adding my experience. I just don't see a kit being able to make 350+ for $2500. More power to you if you can pull it off.
Impressive chart none the less. Definately a track car. For the street, the lag would make it no fun.
330 to the wheels (reliably) is my target, and I think it will be pleanty for a reasonable street car. I had 280 on my last setup and it was quick. The K26/8 I used ran out of gas, and the stock injecors were maxed out.
$2500 for the new setup to get 330? No. Chips, fuel, turbo, exhaust, hard pipes, and on and on. I would say I have about $4k into the goodies to make the power.
Just adding my experience. I just don't see a kit being able to make 350+ for $2500. More power to you if you can pull it off.
02-11-2003, 03:40 AM
#34
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I'll try to answer all questions at once.
The dyno chart that is posted is over a year old. The boost I ran was for 18 & 22 PSI by the boost gauge. I ran this setup at 26PSI boost with more HP/TQ but I don't have the chart to display it.
The thing to notice is how smooth the HP/TQ curves are. No peaks and drops!
The car dynoed is a track car and will spin the large Hoosiers at will. So it's not something I want for the street, it'll be very hard to handle.
The power sweet spot was intentionally geared toward 3500+rpm, as that's where a race car spend most of the time (hopefully!).
I'm glad to hear that most 951 owners would rather see less HP for the street. Lag is caused by many factors: boost control, turbo size, tuning.
In response to the injector duty cycles vs. injector size question in an earlier post. Just changing the injectors will not affect the duty cycle they run at. At WOT (as that's where you see the 100% duty cycle), the DME keeps on sending the same signal to the injectors based on RPM and LOAD. Unless the LOAD signal or the DME data points is changed the output to the injectors will be the same. Under closed loop, the DME attempts to curve the injectors signal based on the O2 sensor reading, which is ignored at WOT.
The various AFM signal modifiers (ARC2, PiggyBack...) change the LOAD signal to the DME. So that's how you trick the DME into altering the signal out to the injectors...
Hope I was able to clarify few points.
The dyno chart that is posted is over a year old. The boost I ran was for 18 & 22 PSI by the boost gauge. I ran this setup at 26PSI boost with more HP/TQ but I don't have the chart to display it.
The thing to notice is how smooth the HP/TQ curves are. No peaks and drops!
The car dynoed is a track car and will spin the large Hoosiers at will. So it's not something I want for the street, it'll be very hard to handle.
The power sweet spot was intentionally geared toward 3500+rpm, as that's where a race car spend most of the time (hopefully!).
I'm glad to hear that most 951 owners would rather see less HP for the street. Lag is caused by many factors: boost control, turbo size, tuning.
In response to the injector duty cycles vs. injector size question in an earlier post. Just changing the injectors will not affect the duty cycle they run at. At WOT (as that's where you see the 100% duty cycle), the DME keeps on sending the same signal to the injectors based on RPM and LOAD. Unless the LOAD signal or the DME data points is changed the output to the injectors will be the same. Under closed loop, the DME attempts to curve the injectors signal based on the O2 sensor reading, which is ignored at WOT.
The various AFM signal modifiers (ARC2, PiggyBack...) change the LOAD signal to the DME. So that's how you trick the DME into altering the signal out to the injectors...
Hope I was able to clarify few points.
02-11-2003, 10:22 AM
#35
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"> The dyno chart that is posted is over a year old. The boost I ran was for 18 & 22 PSI by the boost gauge. I ran this setup at 26PSI boost with more HP/TQ but I don't have the chart to display it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Well, you do have a chart for 25 psi. Tazman posted it for you. Do you run 24-25 psi at all of your 60+ track events? Very nice torque curves, but 25psi is a lot of boost.
02-11-2003, 11:06 AM
#36
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The dyno run was made at 22-23psi boost. The boost scale on the chart is a bit off. Additional dyno charts will be posted soon with the new turbo that I'm experimenting with.
On the track, unless the traction is bad, I usually run 20-22psi boost.
On the track, unless the traction is bad, I usually run 20-22psi boost.
02-11-2003, 11:09 AM
#37
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Hello
It seems to me that some of you here you just not read carefully the board. the Turbo from fast 951 is not new. It is installed for over one year now and it runs in Geramny. The car (still without MAF) drives very nice. The lag is not bigger than with a k26/8 but the Turbo stil goes and goes and goes till over 6000 rpm. The k26/8 give you a feeling of power for some sec and after that you feel that ther eis no power coming any more. with fast 951 Turbo the car pull till to red line. all thes einfos are at 1 bar boost. soon will be used his MAF and some bigger injectors.
Another one guy who already use the MAF system from 951 but with a k27/6 is also very happy with it.
And to reply to some other question YES it is possible to get 350 HP for $2500 and you do not have to run very high boost.
here some data from 100 to 200 km/h at 16 PSI only. The car needs 12.5 sec from 100 to 200 km/h(60 mph to 125 mph) a stock 951 needs about 20 sec.
I shifted sooner other wise I could do a faster time (about 11.5 sec)
The HP rating is at the wheel
This is a real time performance and not just imaginary big HP dyno data. For me is importand how fast is teh car REALLY. big dyno numbers do not count on the real world performance.
Start Speed 100.0kph
kph sec gforce km RWhp
110.0 0.85 0.33 0.024 228
120.0 1.73 0.30 0.053 235
130.0 2.62 0.31 0.084 261
140.0 3.53 0.31 0.118 286
150.0 5.76 0.22 0.208 238
160.0 7.04 0.20 0.263 247
170.0 8.33 0.22 0.323 287
180.0 9.71 0.19 0.390 281
190.0 11.10 0.19 0.462 305
200.0 12.58 0.19 0.543 335
all in all I am happy with fast 951 products
Konstantin
It seems to me that some of you here you just not read carefully the board. the Turbo from fast 951 is not new. It is installed for over one year now and it runs in Geramny. The car (still without MAF) drives very nice. The lag is not bigger than with a k26/8 but the Turbo stil goes and goes and goes till over 6000 rpm. The k26/8 give you a feeling of power for some sec and after that you feel that ther eis no power coming any more. with fast 951 Turbo the car pull till to red line. all thes einfos are at 1 bar boost. soon will be used his MAF and some bigger injectors.
Another one guy who already use the MAF system from 951 but with a k27/6 is also very happy with it.
And to reply to some other question YES it is possible to get 350 HP for $2500 and you do not have to run very high boost.
here some data from 100 to 200 km/h at 16 PSI only. The car needs 12.5 sec from 100 to 200 km/h(60 mph to 125 mph) a stock 951 needs about 20 sec.
I shifted sooner other wise I could do a faster time (about 11.5 sec)
The HP rating is at the wheel
This is a real time performance and not just imaginary big HP dyno data. For me is importand how fast is teh car REALLY. big dyno numbers do not count on the real world performance.
Start Speed 100.0kph
kph sec gforce km RWhp
110.0 0.85 0.33 0.024 228
120.0 1.73 0.30 0.053 235
130.0 2.62 0.31 0.084 261
140.0 3.53 0.31 0.118 286
150.0 5.76 0.22 0.208 238
160.0 7.04 0.20 0.263 247
170.0 8.33 0.22 0.323 287
180.0 9.71 0.19 0.390 281
190.0 11.10 0.19 0.462 305
200.0 12.58 0.19 0.543 335
all in all I am happy with fast 951 products
Konstantin
02-11-2003, 12:07 PM
#38
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I think my ideal STREET car would do around 300RWHP at a low a boost level (15PSI or so) and with as little lag as possible. To my mind this makes for a fun ride with a quick response and without too much stress on the engine or drivetrain.
This opinion could change as I get used to my car which is doing around 300rwhp now, but I know that already my 951 is perfectly willing to break loose in various gears if I over do it on the gas.
A reasonably priced 300rwhp kit would be nice in so far as it would leave some funds to address other aspects of the car that might need to be looked at once you gain that kind of performance.
Thats my 2 cents worth.
This opinion could change as I get used to my car which is doing around 300rwhp now, but I know that already my 951 is perfectly willing to break loose in various gears if I over do it on the gas.
A reasonably priced 300rwhp kit would be nice in so far as it would leave some funds to address other aspects of the car that might need to be looked at once you gain that kind of performance.
Thats my 2 cents worth.
02-11-2003, 01:14 PM
#39
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The dyno run was made at 22-23psi boost. The boost scale on the chart is a bit off.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Not trying to be an *** here, but if your dyno shop can't keep a boost monitor calibrated, how are they going to assure you the dyno is correct?
Let break this down a bit. Target horsepower = 350, Target cost = $2500. This is all on a stock car.
You will need:
Turbo ($1000-1500)
Injectors ($400)
MAF Kit ($750)
Fuel Regulator ($150)
Boost Control ($100)
From my 3 years experience trying to find a good setup, this is the bare minimum. (And I was also pretty nice on price) To size a street turbo that has minimal lag (full boost below 3000rpm) and hit 350hp, you will need a lot of boost. (18psi+) Doing that on a high milage car will have increased ring wear and possibly reliability problems.
Exhaust would be nice, hard pipes as well. This will easily add another $1500-2000 for good stuff.
Not saying it cannot be done, but I would like to see a little more about it before I can believe. Just bolting in a turbo at 18psi, MAF kit, and injectors is probably not going to net you 400 crank / 350 wheel horesepower.
Let break this down a bit. Target horsepower = 350, Target cost = $2500. This is all on a stock car.
You will need:
Turbo ($1000-1500)
Injectors ($400)
MAF Kit ($750)
Fuel Regulator ($150)
Boost Control ($100)
From my 3 years experience trying to find a good setup, this is the bare minimum. (And I was also pretty nice on price) To size a street turbo that has minimal lag (full boost below 3000rpm) and hit 350hp, you will need a lot of boost. (18psi+) Doing that on a high milage car will have increased ring wear and possibly reliability problems.
Exhaust would be nice, hard pipes as well. This will easily add another $1500-2000 for good stuff.
Not saying it cannot be done, but I would like to see a little more about it before I can believe. Just bolting in a turbo at 18psi, MAF kit, and injectors is probably not going to net you 400 crank / 350 wheel horesepower.
02-11-2003, 02:32 PM
#40
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Perry,
If you look closely at the dyno chart, mainly the boost section. The numbers on the left side (ie boost level) is not very readable, that's what I meant by the scale is off. The boost was monitored by 3 different guages. A/F with 2 sensors...
Thank you for your observation.
If you look closely at the dyno chart, mainly the boost section. The numbers on the left side (ie boost level) is not very readable, that's what I meant by the scale is off. The boost was monitored by 3 different guages. A/F with 2 sensors...
Thank you for your observation.
02-12-2003, 12:49 AM
#41
Interesting... seems like there are a few of us looking for the same thing out of our 951's. My ideal street/DE car will be producing around 320rwhp with 350ftlbs torque at 15 psi boost on premium (91 octane) pump gas, with minimal tuneability issues. My budget is $3500 for the components, which should include turbo, MAP, injectors, fpr and chips. I already have the wide fire head gasket on my car, along with a test pipe and will have a new wastegate at that point (leaning towards the Lindsey unit right now...).
I am currently waiting on Guru and Kokeln to finish up their kits (yes, Rob at Kokeln is working on one, too) and then will be making my purchase. Fast951, you have my attention as well... but my biggest criteria is getting the most bang for my buck at 15psi and pump gas.
Regards,
I am currently waiting on Guru and Kokeln to finish up their kits (yes, Rob at Kokeln is working on one, too) and then will be making my purchase. Fast951, you have my attention as well... but my biggest criteria is getting the most bang for my buck at 15psi and pump gas.
Regards,
02-12-2003, 01:04 AM
#42
Nordschleife Master
Jesus, I weighed my car yesterday..... I know what we should be doing! we all need to go on diets.
I have an 86, so NO abs or airbags. and a 4speaker stereo.... 1/2 tank of gas
2929 lbs!
I used to just like to be able to "scare the girls" , but now I'm looking for more.
I have an 86, so NO abs or airbags. and a 4speaker stereo.... 1/2 tank of gas
2929 lbs!
I used to just like to be able to "scare the girls" , but now I'm looking for more.
02-12-2003, 01:45 AM
#43
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fast 951, It seems that there are 2 different groups here: track and street. 2 very different wants and needs. 10-1 wt-hp is nice for the street, but 6 or 7-1 reliably on the track @ $2500 would be very nice. It's why my NA 911 is for sale and I'm putting together a 951. Am I wrong to think this? Any help appreciated.
02-12-2003, 01:49 AM
#44
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Luke, That will be the interesting part of racing these cars. They are chunky, but sweet handling. I'm wondering what my tire and brake pad budget is going to go to.
