Boost Issue
05-19-2011, 04:11 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Are you sure the cup chips are supposed to boost that high? I only have turbo S chips, but see a steady 11 or 12 psi to redline - which is .75-.8 bar (which is what I thought the cup chips did, too...)
05-19-2011, 05:22 PM
#18
Also - what's the standard behavior in a car when the stock CV is unplugged (electrical connection)? Wondering if perhaps your CV kicked the bucket and you're getting a default boost rate. (Not sure if perhaps the Lindsey Clubgate might wind up giving a little more boost than a stock WG if you send a straight signal to it.) I have a spare CV we can try if that comes down to it.
05-19-2011, 11:47 PM
#19
Pro
Thread Starter
The cup chips are supposed to give you 1 bar of boost so I am down a little on boost. In terms of the downpipe, Im not sure what is on there as it came with the car.
Im planning to check the system for leaks this weekend and then wil report back. Hopefully I will find something.
Jim, I have a new CV in the car so it should be in good shape.
Im planning to check the system for leaks this weekend and then wil report back. Hopefully I will find something.
Jim, I have a new CV in the car so it should be in good shape.
05-20-2011, 12:25 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
Here are some Pics of how I pressure tested my intake, found several leaks, the main one being TB o-rings:
Bought the plumbing pvc cap at Home Depot (2.5" OD), Stem at Auto Parts Store
Put 15 psi and then listened, also used a spray bottle with some soapy water
Bought the plumbing pvc cap at Home Depot (2.5" OD), Stem at Auto Parts Store
Put 15 psi and then listened, also used a spray bottle with some soapy water
05-20-2011, 09:09 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
Again, I hate to be skeptical, but my experience has been (although I've never physically had a set of cup chips) that the cup chips don't run any higher boost than turbo S chips. (I've developed this opinion from talking with people with cup cars and talking with DanR who used "cup chips" back to back with turbo S chips.)
05-20-2011, 09:58 AM
#22
Pro
Thread Starter
Hey Van
That could be totally correct. I also have zero experience with cup chips having more boost. I guess I was just going off of what the PCA racing rules say. Sure would be nice if I could get to 1 bar
Ill still probably check for leaks this weekend just to be sure.
I can't remember but I think DanR might have used a copy of the chips that I have. I believe I sent him a set when I burned mine. If he has the same results then I may be leak free and just boost lacking
That could be totally correct. I also have zero experience with cup chips having more boost. I guess I was just going off of what the PCA racing rules say. Sure would be nice if I could get to 1 bar
Ill still probably check for leaks this weekend just to be sure. I can't remember but I think DanR might have used a copy of the chips that I have. I believe I sent him a set when I burned mine. If he has the same results then I may be leak free and just boost lacking
05-20-2011, 10:32 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
Brian - I am assuming the test was done in 3rd gear, 3k-6.5k rpm pull? It will be close to 1 psi lower max boost in 2nd gear, as the load in the low gears is not enough to generate full exhaust energy. Sure you guys know that, but not sure a scrutineer does...
By the way, when you were tested, did the scrutineer comment on what boost level he would have allowed?
Prior to updating the car, do you know how much boost it made with the original/stock setup, running stock Turbo S chips with a stock factory waste gate?
If the engine is carrying the 12psi to or near redline, my guess is that you do not have a leak or other mechanical/electrical problem. That’s probably how much boost the car will make w/ the existing setup.
There is uncertainty about anything called “cup” chips, as there are several versions, from the 86 cars (26/6) to the 87+ cars (26/8), the Euro series, Canadian series, and the US Escort cars. Some speculation as to which cars ran which chips. And there are so many copies and copies of copies that have been passed around and sold over the years, its hard to be certain what maps you actually have.
The hp rating on the 87+ Euro and Canadian Cups is most often listed at 250+ bhp, and there is a torque value of 272 ft/lbs on some of the Canadian documentation. By comparison, a regular Turbo S w/ open exhaust and an aggressive DME chip running at stock boost level will make how much power and torque…?
The US Escorts and later French Cups ran more power. The US cars came with 3 chip sets and used a 3.0bar FPR when running the hot sets. There is some factory documentation that indicates the WGs were shimmed when running the hot chips, and it also states to use 104+ octane. This is very likely the same setup that was used on the French cars for the 1990 series, as they had 3.0 FPRs and modified WGs added to them when upgraded. I have seen a couple times that both the Escorts and French cars were running around 2.1 bar abs (17 psig) in this configuration, and were rated closer to 300 bhp.
The Canadian Rothman’s series had the reputation of a lot cheating during the races. Jetted banjos, drilled cycling valves, etc. And a lot of the cars, including a few of the US Escorts were pro raced in other venues, IMSA, World Challenge and others, so were setup to run high boost. When some of these cars started showing up at PCA Club Racing events w/ all sorts of boost levels, I think PCA set a max limit as to what they could legally run in class (then D, now G). Not sure that PCA had any specific belief that the 1.0 bar gage max (14.5 psi) is what a set of “cup” chips should make, it may have been an arbitrary limit to force some of the more modified cars drop their boost down.
For better or worse, adding to the uncertainly, there has always been rumors about the unique parts and performance of the cups. Anything from special factory motorsport versions of the K26/8 and "green dot" waste gates, to shorter 5th gears or different R/Ps, seam welding, magnesium transmissions, etc.
Regardless, I did confirm a couple years ago w/ Donna, that 1.0 bar gage max (14.5 psi) is what the G - Cups are allowed to run.
By the way, when you were tested, did the scrutineer comment on what boost level he would have allowed?
Prior to updating the car, do you know how much boost it made with the original/stock setup, running stock Turbo S chips with a stock factory waste gate?
If the engine is carrying the 12psi to or near redline, my guess is that you do not have a leak or other mechanical/electrical problem. That’s probably how much boost the car will make w/ the existing setup.
There is uncertainty about anything called “cup” chips, as there are several versions, from the 86 cars (26/6) to the 87+ cars (26/8), the Euro series, Canadian series, and the US Escort cars. Some speculation as to which cars ran which chips. And there are so many copies and copies of copies that have been passed around and sold over the years, its hard to be certain what maps you actually have.
The hp rating on the 87+ Euro and Canadian Cups is most often listed at 250+ bhp, and there is a torque value of 272 ft/lbs on some of the Canadian documentation. By comparison, a regular Turbo S w/ open exhaust and an aggressive DME chip running at stock boost level will make how much power and torque…?
The US Escorts and later French Cups ran more power. The US cars came with 3 chip sets and used a 3.0bar FPR when running the hot sets. There is some factory documentation that indicates the WGs were shimmed when running the hot chips, and it also states to use 104+ octane. This is very likely the same setup that was used on the French cars for the 1990 series, as they had 3.0 FPRs and modified WGs added to them when upgraded. I have seen a couple times that both the Escorts and French cars were running around 2.1 bar abs (17 psig) in this configuration, and were rated closer to 300 bhp.
The Canadian Rothman’s series had the reputation of a lot cheating during the races. Jetted banjos, drilled cycling valves, etc. And a lot of the cars, including a few of the US Escorts were pro raced in other venues, IMSA, World Challenge and others, so were setup to run high boost. When some of these cars started showing up at PCA Club Racing events w/ all sorts of boost levels, I think PCA set a max limit as to what they could legally run in class (then D, now G). Not sure that PCA had any specific belief that the 1.0 bar gage max (14.5 psi) is what a set of “cup” chips should make, it may have been an arbitrary limit to force some of the more modified cars drop their boost down.
For better or worse, adding to the uncertainly, there has always been rumors about the unique parts and performance of the cups. Anything from special factory motorsport versions of the K26/8 and "green dot" waste gates, to shorter 5th gears or different R/Ps, seam welding, magnesium transmissions, etc.
Regardless, I did confirm a couple years ago w/ Donna, that 1.0 bar gage max (14.5 psi) is what the G - Cups are allowed to run.
Last edited by Oddjob; 05-20-2011 at 10:55 AM.
05-20-2011, 10:34 AM
#24
Hey Van
That could be totally correct. I also have zero experience with cup chips having more boost. I guess I was just going off of what the PCA racing rules say. Sure would be nice if I could get to 1 bar Ill still probably check for leaks this weekend just to be sure.
I can't remember but I think DanR might have used a copy of the chips that I have. I believe I sent him a set when I burned mine. If he has the same results then I may be leak free and just boost lacking
That could be totally correct. I also have zero experience with cup chips having more boost. I guess I was just going off of what the PCA racing rules say. Sure would be nice if I could get to 1 bar
Ill still probably check for leaks this weekend just to be sure. I can't remember but I think DanR might have used a copy of the chips that I have. I believe I sent him a set when I burned mine. If he has the same results then I may be leak free and just boost lacking
That said, if the rule says the max is 12.5psi for the 951S... and your car is putting down 12.5psi.... then the coincidence there leads me to ask: are you SURE you have the Cup KLR chip in your car, and not a stock 951S KLR chip in there by mistake?
05-20-2011, 10:53 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
Well page 18 of the 2011 rulebook lists maximum boost pressure at 12.5psi for 951/951S. But then page 30 lists the maximum boost pressure at 1bar for "Playboy-Escort Canadian Cup 944 Turbo" which I assume is what your car is?
That said, if the rule says the max is 12.5psi for the 951S... and your car is putting down 12.5psi.... then the coincidence there leads me to ask: are you SURE you have the Cup KLR chip in your car, and not a stock 951S KLR chip in there by mistake?
That said, if the rule says the max is 12.5psi for the 951S... and your car is putting down 12.5psi.... then the coincidence there leads me to ask: are you SURE you have the Cup KLR chip in your car, and not a stock 951S KLR chip in there by mistake?
05-20-2011, 11:17 AM
#26
Rennlist Member
Well, Brian, if you do manage to get to 1 bar boost, let me know how you do it! Since I'm also running in G as a turbo cup (but I'm currently using turbo S chips).