huntley racing cam kits
06-27-2002, 05:42 PM
#1
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huntley racing cam kits
Hey, does anyone have any experience with the huntley cam kits? They look pretty good. Thanks.
I don't know if they are what they say they are, so some info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again.
I don't know if they are what they say they are, so some info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again.
06-28-2002, 12:42 PM
#3
Nordschleife Master
[quote]Originally posted by 944turbo:
<strong>go with the webcan 272 grind ... i think you will be very happy .... and you can avoid Huntley.
944turbo</strong><hr></blockquote>
what's the price on that one? I'm in the market and also looking at MR. Milledge
<strong>go with the webcan 272 grind ... i think you will be very happy .... and you can avoid Huntley.
944turbo</strong><hr></blockquote>
what's the price on that one? I'm in the market and also looking at MR. Milledge
06-28-2002, 03:18 PM
#4
Race Director
Also check these guys out for Porsche cams:
<a href="http://www.webcaminc.com" target="_blank">Web Cam Inc.</a> (909) 369-5144
<a href="http://www.elgincams.com/c-por5.html" target="_blank">Elgin Cams</a>
<a href="http://www.paeco.com" target="_blank">Paeco Industries</a>
All of these are around $210-410. I recommend the Elgin "Improved 155.5R.9R" grind. But cam upgrades should be one of the LAST things you do because of the low HP-per-$$$ gained. They really just shift the shape of HP curve around; like taking low-end torque and putting it up top as high-RPM power. You can do the same thing by retarding the cam with an adjustable cam-gear.
And I think it's pretty irresponsible of Huntley to be offering some of those cams without requiring valve-spring upgrades and solid-lifter conversions.
<a href="http://www.webcaminc.com" target="_blank">Web Cam Inc.</a> (909) 369-5144
<a href="http://www.elgincams.com/c-por5.html" target="_blank">Elgin Cams</a>
<a href="http://www.paeco.com" target="_blank">Paeco Industries</a>
All of these are around $210-410. I recommend the Elgin "Improved 155.5R.9R" grind. But cam upgrades should be one of the LAST things you do because of the low HP-per-$$$ gained. They really just shift the shape of HP curve around; like taking low-end torque and putting it up top as high-RPM power. You can do the same thing by retarding the cam with an adjustable cam-gear.
And I think it's pretty irresponsible of Huntley to be offering some of those cams without requiring valve-spring upgrades and solid-lifter conversions.
06-28-2002, 11:15 PM
#5
Nordschleife Master
danno, if you're just shifting the shape, how can any power be gained?
Seems like the more air you're moving, the more gain you'll see. That's what made the 363 package so special? right?
Seems like the more air you're moving, the more gain you'll see. That's what made the 363 package so special? right?
06-29-2002, 01:15 AM
#6
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Yeah, I always thought JM's cams were supposed to yeild some really good power gains(?)- I was planning to use his, but hadn't talked specifics. He said (last week) that he was coming out w/a new turbo kit- he HAD one for our cars w/a large Garret w/chips, injectors, FPR, carbon fibre snorkel replacement, etc, that made 360HP using just under a bar of boost- it was pricey (I think it was $3500)- his new kit, he said, would include cams, as well, and he was shooting for a MAX of 14psi and somewhere just over 370HP...
********And I think it's pretty irresponsible of Huntley to be offering some of those cams without requiring valve-spring upgrades and solid-lifter conversions*******
Not sure about 951's, but a good friend of mine, who modded 3 dif VR6 Corrados & a VR6 Jetta bought some cams for his first Corrado, back when the Shrick cams first came out for those cars. He told his mechanic (now MY mechanic- Mike) what he was doing and that he MAY need some help- Mike mentioned valve springs- the place didn't sell them to him. He called them back- they said he DID NOT need them- Mike said he REALLY did- this went back and forth a few times. Well, he listened to the tuner and it TOTALLED his engine! Something to think about- again, I have NO idea about OUR cars, but it'as a very good point Danno. BTW, what do you mean by "solid lifter conversion?" Would one need BOTH the valve springs AND the solid lifters for a basic cam mod? I just bought new lifters a year ago when my head gasket blew and I used a shaved P&P head- I wonder if JM plans for this stuff to go w/his newer kit, if in fact he decides to use the cams too(?)- I assume this could get pretty pricey- the cams don't sound too bad, but I paid like $500 for my lifters, and they were STOCK...
********And I think it's pretty irresponsible of Huntley to be offering some of those cams without requiring valve-spring upgrades and solid-lifter conversions*******
Not sure about 951's, but a good friend of mine, who modded 3 dif VR6 Corrados & a VR6 Jetta bought some cams for his first Corrado, back when the Shrick cams first came out for those cars. He told his mechanic (now MY mechanic- Mike) what he was doing and that he MAY need some help- Mike mentioned valve springs- the place didn't sell them to him. He called them back- they said he DID NOT need them- Mike said he REALLY did- this went back and forth a few times. Well, he listened to the tuner and it TOTALLED his engine! Something to think about- again, I have NO idea about OUR cars, but it'as a very good point Danno. BTW, what do you mean by "solid lifter conversion?" Would one need BOTH the valve springs AND the solid lifters for a basic cam mod? I just bought new lifters a year ago when my head gasket blew and I used a shaved P&P head- I wonder if JM plans for this stuff to go w/his newer kit, if in fact he decides to use the cams too(?)- I assume this could get pretty pricey- the cams don't sound too bad, but I paid like $500 for my lifters, and they were STOCK...
06-29-2002, 04:28 AM
#7
Race Director
"if you're just shifting the shape, how can any power be gained?"
Check this out:
A theoretical comparison between a Turbo w/chips to one with a cam upgrade. The specs on the cam would be increased duration with a later intake-closing.
Of the four valve events of exhaust open/close, intake open/close, the most important one is intake closing; and it's always a compromise. At low-RPM, you want the intake to close right near BDC so that as the piston moves up, it can compress the entire stroke worth of air. However, at high-RPM, the intake-air column can't move fast enough to completely fill the chamber before the piston starts to move up. So you delay the intake-valve closing to allow additional mixture to get crammed into the chamber (even as the piston starts to move up). However, this destroys low-RPM power because a lot of the mixture is pushed back out the intake-valve before it's sealed.
So this is where VarioCam, VTEC, VTTi, VANOS and other forms of variable-valve timing comes in. At low-RPMs, they can provide an early intake-valve closing to maximize compression. Then at high-RPMs, they retard the intake closing to allow additional filling time.
However, without variable-valve timing, adding duration to a cam with a later intake-closing gives you the changes you see above. Going from a mostly-stock 951 with 230rwhp and 'up-camming' it, you can gain 20hp. However, peak-HP numbers don't mean much in actual performance because you've sacrificed low-end power.
If you were to race the two cars above, the stock car will be faster from 2000-6000rpm. That can be see in the area-under-the-curve integration where its graph is higher than the modified car. The car with the cam upgrade DOES make more peak horsepower, but is only faster from 6000rpm+. Actually, you need to integrate the differences of the torque curve, since that's what translates into linear thrust at the rear wheels, but it will be a similar comparison.
Now this was an isolated case for educational purposes. But that's one of the reasons I like the Elgin 'improved' cam and the WebCam grind #274 (don't know the specs for grind #272). They don't change the duration or timing too much, but just increases the lift and its rising rate. This gives you a healthy torque increase across the entire RPM-and and yields a significantly faster car, while peak-HP numbers are affected only mildly. Milledge won't give me the specs on is cams, so I can't comment on it. But a before & after dyno chart comparison would be very informative. We'll talk about cam lobe centers and separation at another time.
"what do you mean by "solid lifter conversion?" Would one need BOTH the valve springs AND the solid lifters for a basic cam mod?"
There are two different but inter-related rev-limiting factors we're facing here.
The first is valve-float, which is simply the inertia of the valve at high-RPMs overcoming the spring-rate to pull it back towards the seat. This causes the valve to hang open, even though the cam-lobe has passed it, and BANG, a piston slams into it.
This is simply a function of the valve's weight, the valve-spring and the RPMs you're revving, regardless of the cam. Although higher-lift cams will tend to cause float at lower-revs. This limit is about 7000rpm on our cars. If you get a cam that is designed for high-RPM power, like the one above, then you HAVE to rev it up this high to get the power gains. As such, high-rate springs will be needed to rev up to 8000rpm and keep the valves coming back to the seat properly. This increases cam-lobe friction and wear. So you better make sure that the cam you're using will provide at least enough of a power increase to overcome the extra friction of the high-rate valve-springs.
The next limiting factor is lifter collapse or float at high-RPMs. Due to the quicker speed of the no-lift to max-lift transition of the cam-lobes at high-RPMs, the lifters can actually get compressed and lose some of their height at high-revs. So instead of lifting the valve off the seat, the cam lobe simply compresses the lifter. The effect is then your high-lift cam doesn't lift quite that much and the timing of your intake-closing gets messed up as well at high-RPMs. Hydraulic lifters are only good for up to about 7000rpm, after which they cause too much variation in the valve-timing to be reliable.
So a solid-lifter conversion is just that. There's no hydraulics inside the lifter at all. It's just a solid chunk of metal with the exact same dimensions of the lifters and fits into the cam-housing the same way. This way, at high-RPMs, there's no chance that the lifters can compress and all of the cam lobe's lift goes into lifting the valve.
However, this brings up the ugly task of valve clearance adjustments. Since metal parts expand when they're hot, you need to have a gap between the end of the valve-stem and the lifter when it's cold to allow for this expansion. To do that on our cars, it's difficult because you can't take a valve-cover off and use feeler gauges between the cam and the lifter. You'll have to use a dial-indicator on the valve-head itself and measure its lift and duration through two complete rotations of the crank. Then compare this lift and duration number with the actual cam specs and calculate what the actual valve-gap would be. Then add or subtract shims to the solid-lifter.
As you can see, messing with cams is quite intricate and can lead to catastrophic failures. I would leave upgrading the cams as one of the last steps you take only after other upgrades that will give you more bang-for-the-buck gains (hp/$-spent). Things like intercooler, fuel-system upgrades and aftermarket EFI systems would actually be better upgrades.
Check this out:
A theoretical comparison between a Turbo w/chips to one with a cam upgrade. The specs on the cam would be increased duration with a later intake-closing.
Of the four valve events of exhaust open/close, intake open/close, the most important one is intake closing; and it's always a compromise. At low-RPM, you want the intake to close right near BDC so that as the piston moves up, it can compress the entire stroke worth of air. However, at high-RPM, the intake-air column can't move fast enough to completely fill the chamber before the piston starts to move up. So you delay the intake-valve closing to allow additional mixture to get crammed into the chamber (even as the piston starts to move up). However, this destroys low-RPM power because a lot of the mixture is pushed back out the intake-valve before it's sealed.
So this is where VarioCam, VTEC, VTTi, VANOS and other forms of variable-valve timing comes in. At low-RPMs, they can provide an early intake-valve closing to maximize compression. Then at high-RPMs, they retard the intake closing to allow additional filling time.
However, without variable-valve timing, adding duration to a cam with a later intake-closing gives you the changes you see above. Going from a mostly-stock 951 with 230rwhp and 'up-camming' it, you can gain 20hp. However, peak-HP numbers don't mean much in actual performance because you've sacrificed low-end power.
If you were to race the two cars above, the stock car will be faster from 2000-6000rpm. That can be see in the area-under-the-curve integration where its graph is higher than the modified car. The car with the cam upgrade DOES make more peak horsepower, but is only faster from 6000rpm+. Actually, you need to integrate the differences of the torque curve, since that's what translates into linear thrust at the rear wheels, but it will be a similar comparison.
Now this was an isolated case for educational purposes. But that's one of the reasons I like the Elgin 'improved' cam and the WebCam grind #274 (don't know the specs for grind #272). They don't change the duration or timing too much, but just increases the lift and its rising rate. This gives you a healthy torque increase across the entire RPM-and and yields a significantly faster car, while peak-HP numbers are affected only mildly. Milledge won't give me the specs on is cams, so I can't comment on it. But a before & after dyno chart comparison would be very informative. We'll talk about cam lobe centers and separation at another time.
"what do you mean by "solid lifter conversion?" Would one need BOTH the valve springs AND the solid lifters for a basic cam mod?"
There are two different but inter-related rev-limiting factors we're facing here.
The first is valve-float, which is simply the inertia of the valve at high-RPMs overcoming the spring-rate to pull it back towards the seat. This causes the valve to hang open, even though the cam-lobe has passed it, and BANG, a piston slams into it.
This is simply a function of the valve's weight, the valve-spring and the RPMs you're revving, regardless of the cam. Although higher-lift cams will tend to cause float at lower-revs. This limit is about 7000rpm on our cars. If you get a cam that is designed for high-RPM power, like the one above, then you HAVE to rev it up this high to get the power gains. As such, high-rate springs will be needed to rev up to 8000rpm and keep the valves coming back to the seat properly. This increases cam-lobe friction and wear. So you better make sure that the cam you're using will provide at least enough of a power increase to overcome the extra friction of the high-rate valve-springs.
The next limiting factor is lifter collapse or float at high-RPMs. Due to the quicker speed of the no-lift to max-lift transition of the cam-lobes at high-RPMs, the lifters can actually get compressed and lose some of their height at high-revs. So instead of lifting the valve off the seat, the cam lobe simply compresses the lifter. The effect is then your high-lift cam doesn't lift quite that much and the timing of your intake-closing gets messed up as well at high-RPMs. Hydraulic lifters are only good for up to about 7000rpm, after which they cause too much variation in the valve-timing to be reliable.
So a solid-lifter conversion is just that. There's no hydraulics inside the lifter at all. It's just a solid chunk of metal with the exact same dimensions of the lifters and fits into the cam-housing the same way. This way, at high-RPMs, there's no chance that the lifters can compress and all of the cam lobe's lift goes into lifting the valve.
However, this brings up the ugly task of valve clearance adjustments. Since metal parts expand when they're hot, you need to have a gap between the end of the valve-stem and the lifter when it's cold to allow for this expansion. To do that on our cars, it's difficult because you can't take a valve-cover off and use feeler gauges between the cam and the lifter. You'll have to use a dial-indicator on the valve-head itself and measure its lift and duration through two complete rotations of the crank. Then compare this lift and duration number with the actual cam specs and calculate what the actual valve-gap would be. Then add or subtract shims to the solid-lifter.
As you can see, messing with cams is quite intricate and can lead to catastrophic failures. I would leave upgrading the cams as one of the last steps you take only after other upgrades that will give you more bang-for-the-buck gains (hp/$-spent). Things like intercooler, fuel-system upgrades and aftermarket EFI systems would actually be better upgrades.
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06-29-2002, 09:40 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
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I had a big cam in my car...DON"T DO IT!, it idled rough, had terrible over lap, and the car was a slug on the bottom end. I took that cam out long ago, even on my 2.8 liter I ran a stock cam and was getting some decent numbers (the dyno sheet is on Danno's site (its listed as the SFR 2.8 liter, most of the tweaking was done there when I was a partner).
If you fo want to do the cam, do every other mod you can first, then do it, it really is not worth the bucks unless you plan to run in the extreme RPM ranges, DO NOT do this mod without better springs and NEW lifters (from Porsche). I've seen three sets of valves bent and three sets of lifters go bad on the same car within one month by running a big cam with old (or after market lifters) lifters and stock springs.
Take Care!
If you fo want to do the cam, do every other mod you can first, then do it, it really is not worth the bucks unless you plan to run in the extreme RPM ranges, DO NOT do this mod without better springs and NEW lifters (from Porsche). I've seen three sets of valves bent and three sets of lifters go bad on the same car within one month by running a big cam with old (or after market lifters) lifters and stock springs.
Take Care!
06-29-2002, 09:58 PM
#9
Done With Sidepatch
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Good advice John...I was considering a cam change, as I am in the middle of a rebuild, but after alot of research I decided money could be better spent elsewhere...I did replace my valve springs when I had my head rebuilt though...As my engine had 125k miles I thought it was a good idea...
06-30-2002, 04:54 AM
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Danno and list, we do recommend our Vandeminium springs with titanium retainers as well as new lifters with many of our cams. It would be irresponsible for me not to refute your comments Danno. <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
06-30-2002, 10:10 PM
#11
Race Director
"Vandeminium springs"
Huh???
Do you mean vanadium?
No refuting needed because we're talking about two completely different things. You're 'recommending' and I'm saying that some of those cams 'require' heavy-duty valve-springs and/or solid-lifters as well. By 'requiring' I'm saying you should be up-front about it and list those requirements on those cams that need these upgrades. So by being honest with it, people will realise that an additional $600-1500 is needed to use some of those cams.
Huh???
Do you mean vanadium?No refuting needed because we're talking about two completely different things. You're 'recommending' and I'm saying that some of those cams 'require' heavy-duty valve-springs and/or solid-lifters as well. By 'requiring' I'm saying you should be up-front about it and list those requirements on those cams that need these upgrades. So by being honest with it, people will realise that an additional $600-1500 is needed to use some of those cams.
07-01-2002, 09:09 AM
#12
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sounds like these cam jobs are not really worth the money. What about on the supra? people have told me that changing the cams adds a lot of power. This adds power, but only top end. how come?
07-01-2002, 01:31 PM
#13
Race Director
"What about on the supra? people have told me that changing the cams adds a lot of power. This adds power, but only top end. how come?"
Exactly as the chart shows above on how you can get more power up top but at the sacrifice of low-end torque. The Supra has DOHC with individual drive-sprockets for each cam. Simple enough to get adjustable sprocket which will allow you to adjust the intake & exhaust cams independently of each other.
Typical mods would be:
1. retard intake 3 degrees - a little more high-end power
2. retard exhaust 3 degrees/retard intake 5-8 degrees - a lot more high-end power, a little less mid-range
3. retard exhaust 3 degrees, advance intake 5 degrees for more low-end torque and midrange (not that the SupraTT needs any more).
This last one is probably the best mod because you get a little more mid-range torque for around town drivability. Yet the extra overlap gives you a little more high-RPM power as well. Obviously you can't do this with our cars.
So just timing the stock cams differently allows you to custom-tailor a power-curve that suits your tastes. Cam upgrades themselves tend to be mild since it's very, very easy to over-cam a DOHC 4-valve turbo engine and dump all your boost out the exhaust before it's had a chance to do any work.
Exactly as the chart shows above on how you can get more power up top but at the sacrifice of low-end torque. The Supra has DOHC with individual drive-sprockets for each cam. Simple enough to get adjustable sprocket which will allow you to adjust the intake & exhaust cams independently of each other.
Typical mods would be:
1. retard intake 3 degrees - a little more high-end power
2. retard exhaust 3 degrees/retard intake 5-8 degrees - a lot more high-end power, a little less mid-range
3. retard exhaust 3 degrees, advance intake 5 degrees for more low-end torque and midrange (not that the SupraTT needs any more).
This last one is probably the best mod because you get a little more mid-range torque for around town drivability. Yet the extra overlap gives you a little more high-RPM power as well. Obviously you can't do this with our cars.
So just timing the stock cams differently allows you to custom-tailor a power-curve that suits your tastes. Cam upgrades themselves tend to be mild since it's very, very easy to over-cam a DOHC 4-valve turbo engine and dump all your boost out the exhaust before it's had a chance to do any work.
07-01-2002, 05:08 PM
#15
Nordschleife Master
[quote]Originally posted by Russ Murphy:
<strong>Hmmmm,
A 2.5 liter with standalone engine management, big Garrett turbo and revving to 8500 rpm's? Sounds VERY interesting!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah but I still want a 2400lbs 3.3 turbo just a little bit more
<strong>Hmmmm,
A 2.5 liter with standalone engine management, big Garrett turbo and revving to 8500 rpm's? Sounds VERY interesting!
</strong><hr></blockquote>Yeah but I still want a 2400lbs 3.3 turbo just a little bit more