cheap, reliable 270-280rwhp(summary)
03-19-2003, 12:16 AM
#1
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cheap, reliable 270-280rwhp(summary)
I am looking for a cheap, safe, reliable way to get ~280rwhp from my '87 951. I've been reading old posts for days now and my eyes hurt and all I have done is found enough options to confuse myself. At this point I'm having trouble telling the big HP mods to the smaller ones I'm interested in. I don't want to dump $2k into accomplishing my current HP goals ... is that possible to avoid?
1) I have seen sites advertising that the APE stg II chips will move HP from 217 to 275
**http://www.windward-perf.com/944turbo.html**
Mine is no where close to that .. maybe 245(crank) right now with mods going beyond just the APE chips
2) I understand that I need to get my AFR under control better if I am going to boost very high at all and still be safe, BUT how do I do that? Different chips? Injectors? higher(or adj) pressure regulator? Fuel management?
3) What boost is safe for daily use ... and under what conditions?
4) Do I have a injector overusage ... 12psi boost and 14psi boost were within 2 HP of eachother ... shouldn't there be ~10hp/psi for this car?
Sorry this is long, but I'm somewhat burried in all my new found *knowledge*. I'm not sure that I want to mess with the cost and tuning involved with MAF .. plus that seems like more power than I need at the moment(maybe pro flow if anything?).
1) I have seen sites advertising that the APE stg II chips will move HP from 217 to 275
**http://www.windward-perf.com/944turbo.html**
Mine is no where close to that .. maybe 245(crank) right now with mods going beyond just the APE chips
2) I understand that I need to get my AFR under control better if I am going to boost very high at all and still be safe, BUT how do I do that? Different chips? Injectors? higher(or adj) pressure regulator? Fuel management?
3) What boost is safe for daily use ... and under what conditions?
4) Do I have a injector overusage ... 12psi boost and 14psi boost were within 2 HP of eachother ... shouldn't there be ~10hp/psi for this car?
Sorry this is long, but I'm somewhat burried in all my new found *knowledge*. I'm not sure that I want to mess with the cost and tuning involved with MAF .. plus that seems like more power than I need at the moment(maybe pro flow if anything?).
03-19-2003, 12:23 AM
#2
Nordschleife Master
Talk to gururacing 
You're a step ahead of the game by already having the Lindsay WG.
Basically I think you'll be looking at Guru stage 2 and some tuning time... (http://www.gururacing.net)
re: 2) Guru fuel controller will take care of that
3) I run 16psi everyday and I think thats safe 15 is 100% safe, of course more wear and tear...but safe.
4) That's out of my league...but my guess is it has something to do with the fact that the autothority chips are tuned to allow for 18-20psi of boost...
You're a step ahead of the game by already having the Lindsay WG.
Basically I think you'll be looking at Guru stage 2 and some tuning time... (http://www.gururacing.net)
re: 2) Guru fuel controller will take care of that
3) I run 16psi everyday and I think thats safe
15 is 100% safe, of course more wear and tear...but safe. 4) That's out of my league...but my guess is it has something to do with the fact that the autothority chips are tuned to allow for 18-20psi of boost...
03-19-2003, 02:31 AM
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Hi newporsche2,
I'm aiming for a similiar goal to you.
ALthough I've done a gururacing chipset upgrade,
I think my next move will be to go the LINK plug and play solution next (gururacing is about to release this along with some other vendors also I think), eg throw away the existing DME and KLR boards and plug straight in the new computer which gives you automated / self tuning of air / fuel (via feedback off stock o2 sensor) and a programmable boost curve (via a PC) along with heaps of other pc programmable features that I would probably never use. After you subtract the cost of dyno time, hiring MAP programmers, cost of stand alone boost management, the time taken to manually fine tune etc this sounds like a cost effective, hassle free way to go to me.
IF you havn't already, have a look at this thread on engine managment. <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=003171#000002" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=003171#000002</a>
I'm aiming for a similiar goal to you.
ALthough I've done a gururacing chipset upgrade,
I think my next move will be to go the LINK plug and play solution next (gururacing is about to release this along with some other vendors also I think), eg throw away the existing DME and KLR boards and plug straight in the new computer which gives you automated / self tuning of air / fuel (via feedback off stock o2 sensor) and a programmable boost curve (via a PC) along with heaps of other pc programmable features that I would probably never use. After you subtract the cost of dyno time, hiring MAP programmers, cost of stand alone boost management, the time taken to manually fine tune etc this sounds like a cost effective, hassle free way to go to me.
IF you havn't already, have a look at this thread on engine managment. <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=003171#000002" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=003171#000002</a>
03-19-2003, 08:55 AM
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270rwhp is about the "low dollar" working limit of the K26/6 turbo you have on the car. A good MAF kit like Autothority or the similiar Lindsey unit which is adjustable will work well with an adj. FPR and dyno tuning. Guru's MAP kit with the programmer might be a better choice to get you there too. Just be sure to tune any of them on the dyno for the right (or best possible) air/fuel ratio and you'll need to be running 16-17psi to get there. With a K27/6, mine dynoed 300ft-lbs/282hp over two years ago running 18psi with a not-so-great A/F ratio. I've since done the head so it should be running closer to 300hp. I drive it everday to work and haven't had any problems with it. These are great cars.
03-19-2003, 10:46 AM
#6
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To get 280rwhp with a K26 you'll be pushing it. You'll overspin the turbo, and you'll be generating too much heat in the intake.
With the K26, don't expect much more than what you have. Save your money, and if you want more HP start thinking of a turbo and software upgrades (not cheap).
With the K26, don't expect much more than what you have. Save your money, and if you want more HP start thinking of a turbo and software upgrades (not cheap).
03-19-2003, 11:05 AM
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i would save your money and go to driving school, or invest in some suspension modifications. that isn't a huge difference in power... and overrunning the k26/6 is a BAD idea (after burning a valve, i can say that from personal experience). as others have said, you're better off seeking a safe 250-260hp tops, or saving/spending more for the 3xx range (safely)
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03-19-2003, 12:51 PM
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Check out the new <a href="http://technodyneracing.com" target="_blank">http://technodyneracing.com</a> website there are a few articles that give the lowdown on the 944T like what HP you can expect with the different set-ups.
Paul
Paul
03-19-2003, 02:02 PM
#9
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Paul Bloomberg:
<strong>Check out the new <a href="http://technodyneracing.com" target="_blank">http://technodyneracing.com</a> website ...
Paul</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">That's a great article. The one thing he left out was stand alone engine management. I think that the "affordable" stand alone systems out there are one of the biggest benefits for turbo cars in a long time. I've seen a lot of dyno charts posted on this website that have lower than expected hp and in every case if they have a AF curve its all over the map. There are great hp gains to be had by fine tuning fuel and timing curves that really can't be done without standalone. MAF kits are better than nothing but they still only get you part way, and with stand alone systems like the SDS system that are about the same price as a MAF kit you can get some great gains with minimal money.
As far as the original post of 280 hp for < $2,000, I would say your only choice would be to pick up a used K27 turbo and a MAF or MAP system. A MAF, MAP, or stand alone is the only way to get your AF under control and optimize the potential of the K27.
<strong>Check out the new <a href="http://technodyneracing.com" target="_blank">http://technodyneracing.com</a> website ...
Paul</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">That's a great article. The one thing he left out was stand alone engine management. I think that the "affordable" stand alone systems out there are one of the biggest benefits for turbo cars in a long time. I've seen a lot of dyno charts posted on this website that have lower than expected hp and in every case if they have a AF curve its all over the map. There are great hp gains to be had by fine tuning fuel and timing curves that really can't be done without standalone. MAF kits are better than nothing but they still only get you part way, and with stand alone systems like the SDS system that are about the same price as a MAF kit you can get some great gains with minimal money.
As far as the original post of 280 hp for < $2,000, I would say your only choice would be to pick up a used K27 turbo and a MAF or MAP system. A MAF, MAP, or stand alone is the only way to get your AF under control and optimize the potential of the K27.
03-19-2003, 05:04 PM
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GURU MAP 2 with stock turbo, wastegate and injectors dyno about 285 RWHP and just over 300RWTQ
about $1,200 ????
about $1,200 ????
03-19-2003, 08:47 PM
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*toddk911*
At what boost did this kit make 285hp?
*dmoffitt*
I plan to attend DE events as often as possible plus an autoX school
*danno ... or whoever*
The main difference from stage 1 to stage 2 map kit is the intake right? And that is mostly only to adapt to a new turbo?
Is there a reason to have an Adj FPR instead of the 3bar unit sold with this kit?
In the end I'd be looking at $960 for stage 1 plus $250 for the hand held programming unit to tweak fuel maps, minus $20 for the reliaboost ... can we also deduct for the air intake that I already have(don't need the K&N unit)?
Total cost = $1190 or less if we remove the filter from the kit right? +dyno time of course.
*how close are the fuel maps on most setups like mine? is the programming unit likely to be needed ... it seems like you'd only use this once and then not again until a major upgrade changed things? Can the A/F curve be adjusted decently with just an adj FPR?
...sorry so long winded.
At what boost did this kit make 285hp?
*dmoffitt*
I plan to attend DE events as often as possible plus an autoX school
*danno ... or whoever*
The main difference from stage 1 to stage 2 map kit is the intake right? And that is mostly only to adapt to a new turbo?
Is there a reason to have an Adj FPR instead of the 3bar unit sold with this kit?
In the end I'd be looking at $960 for stage 1 plus $250 for the hand held programming unit to tweak fuel maps, minus $20 for the reliaboost ... can we also deduct for the air intake that I already have(don't need the K&N unit)?
Total cost = $1190 or less if we remove the filter from the kit right? +dyno time of course.
*how close are the fuel maps on most setups like mine? is the programming unit likely to be needed ... it seems like you'd only use this once and then not again until a major upgrade changed things? Can the A/F curve be adjusted decently with just an adj FPR?
...sorry so long winded.
03-19-2003, 09:08 PM
#12
Nordschleife Master
Just want to clarify that toddk911 was talking about RWHP (Rear wheel HP) not flyhweel HP.
flywheel hp = RWHP/0.85
There's no advantage to an AFPR if you are getting Guru stage 1 or 2. Any adjustments you need to make to fuel flow can be made with the hand held programmer.
The other better part about guru stage 2 (vs stage 1 and your likely current setup) is that it puts the cone filter in the corner by the headlight, which is better for cold air than behind the radiator where your cone probably is now.
flywheel hp = RWHP/0.85
There's no advantage to an AFPR if you are getting Guru stage 1 or 2. Any adjustments you need to make to fuel flow can be made with the hand held programmer.
The other better part about guru stage 2 (vs stage 1 and your likely current setup) is that it puts the cone filter in the corner by the headlight, which is better for cold air than behind the radiator where your cone probably is now.
03-20-2003, 12:56 AM
#13
Race Director
"In the end I'd be looking at $960 for stage 1 plus $250 for the hand held programming unit to tweak fuel maps, minus $20 for the reliaboost ... can we also deduct for the air intake that I already have(don't need the K&N unit)?"
Sure, we can remove components that you already have:
-30.00 delete ReliaBoost
-30.00 delete 4" K&N filter
--------
-60.00 total
So you can pick up a Stg.1 for $900.
Steve Cooper has some comments about using the hand-held programmer today if he wants to chime in.. <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
Sure, we can remove components that you already have:
-30.00 delete ReliaBoost
-30.00 delete 4" K&N filter
--------
-60.00 total
So you can pick up a Stg.1 for $900.
Steve Cooper has some comments about using the hand-held programmer today if he wants to chime in..
<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
03-20-2003, 11:05 PM
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Anyone have opinions on this kit with/without the programmer? Any dyno results of rennlist member cars before and after?
How close are the preprogrammed settings going to be to maximized ... and how much HP is there to achieve if the programmer is used?
I think this kit sounds like a very good option, I'm unsure about the programmer though. OH YEAH ... my stock CBV is shot(accounts for lost boost I hope) ... I have a stratmosphere unit on order. Lets all pray this is my high RPM boost dropping problem so I don't have to pressurize my intake to find the leaks!!
How close are the preprogrammed settings going to be to maximized ... and how much HP is there to achieve if the programmer is used?
I think this kit sounds like a very good option, I'm unsure about the programmer though. OH YEAH ... my stock CBV is shot(accounts for lost boost I hope) ... I have a stratmosphere unit on order. Lets all pray this is my high RPM boost dropping problem so I don't have to pressurize my intake to find the leaks!!
03-20-2003, 11:23 PM
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What about cold start (in cold climate NOT in S CA) and acceleration from idle with the guru MAP kit. To me this is very important (as it should for anybody who is using his car on the street and not only for race).